out fighting. and why it is important.

[drop bear]

Some ideas I picked up on outfighting. Specific to mma but also applicable to other situations. Infighting is also good. But this is outfighting.

With things like the danger of takedowns. Out fighting increases your reactionary gap. A grappler in a fight wants you close preferably throwing long chains of combinations so that you become an easy target for the shoot. Outfighting increases your reactionary gap so that takedowns are more desperate and give you a better chance to defend.

Also mma specific with the smaller gloves. There is an increased chance of getting knocked out as compared to arts with boxing gloves that can sit in the pocket and trade more. So outfighting reduces the risk of a lucky shot that will end you.

Outfighting also closes the gap a bit easier. Ironic huh?

If I am going backwards and he is going forwards it does not take that much effort to go backwards faster. So if I chase closing the gap. It is easier for the out fighter to deal with me. Staying out of range and picking me off.

Now if I go backwards. The out fighter comes forwards. It is harder for him to suddenly change direction and go backwards. Gap consider yourself closed. It is a game for better dominance but still.

And well not mma but you are less likely to get sucker punched.

So for mma a bit further back than you would normally sit than in boxing or kick boxing.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Drop bear

Not trying to sound dumb, but can you explain in a little bit more detail what you mean by the term "out fighting"? I'm not an MMA player (person who does sport MMA), so I'm not sure if "out fighting" is a specific term relating to a specific or general distance between combatants or not.

Thanks

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Out fighting increases your reactionary gap.

If you are both a striker and a grappler, you should apply the principle, "Never come back empty hand". If you miss your punch, or your opponent blocks your punch, you should always pull his blocking arm back with your punching hand. The connection between you and your opponent can be made quickly. As long as that connection is established, if your opponent moves back, he will pull your body forward with him. The distance between you and your opponent can be remained, and you don't need to chase him all the time.

If you can establish that "link" ASAP, the word "gap" will have no meaning.

 

[drop bear]

If you are both a striker and a grappler, you should apply the principle, "Never come back empty hand". If you miss your punch, or your opponent blocks your punch, you should always pull his blocking arm back with your punching hand. The connection between you and your opponent can be made quickly. As long as that connection is established, if your opponent moves back, he will pull your body forward with him. The distance between you and your opponent can be remained, and you don't need to chase him all the time.

If you can establish that "link" ASAP, the word "gap" will have no meaning.

Most of the time there is nothing to grab. Leaving your arm out there opens you up for double legs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Most of the time there is nothing to grab. Leaving your arm out there opens you up for double legs.

If your opponent

- dodges your punch, you will have nothing to pull.
- blocks your punch, you will have something to pull.

For a pure striker, a punch is just a punch. For a grappler, a punch is more than just a punch. It can be used to set up a "pull (connection)".

 

[drop bear]

Drop bear

Not trying to sound dumb, but can you explain in a little bit more detail what you mean by the term "out fighting"? I'm not an MMA player (person who does sport MMA), so I'm not sure if "out fighting" is a specific term relating to a specific or general distance between combatants or not.

Thanks

You pretty much have outfighting,infighting and the pocket.

Out fighting is the game of using range against an oponant. Generally you keep at a distance and pick off the other guy. It requires you to enter before a combination and exit after one. Sorta.

You use evasion and footwork as a defence first rather than trapping blocking and guard work.

Machida is not the best example because his style is unique. But is an extreme example of out fighting. So it should be easier to see.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5iLr_TGc7y8

Another thing that was discussed. If the other guy has dominant grappling don't lead with kicks. You are very exposed to takedowns. Which is done in the first seconds of the fight.

 

[drop bear]

If your opponent

- dodges your punch, you will have nothing to pull.
- blocks your punch, you will have something to pull.

See above.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You use evasion and footwork as a defence first rather than trapping blocking and guard work.

What you have described is the (unpredictable) "fire" strategy that you won't know where your opponent's body position will be in next second. You can still use the (calm) "water" strategy to wait for your opponent to come in and respond accordingly. It's like the lake water is calm. When you throw a rock into the lake, the lake water will jump up.

There is no perfect strategy. You just have to be smart enough to change from one into another. It's just like in grappling. If your opponent moves around, it will be hard for you to grab him and get into clinch. If your let your opponent to come in to you and grab you, he just lets you to have clinch for free.

 

[drop bear]

What you have described is the (unpredictable) "fire" strategy that you won't know where your opponent's body position will be in next second. You can still use the (calm) "water" strategy to wait for your opponent to come in and respond accordingly. There is no perfect strategy. You just have to be smart enough to change from one into another.

Also correct.

 

[Mark Lynn]

You pretty much have outfighting,infighting and the pocket.

Out fighting is the game of using range against an oponant. Generally you keep at a distance and pick off the other guy. It requires you to enter before a combination and exit after one. Sorta.

Thanks for the reply, I kind of figured as much but I wanted to get clarification first.

In the Filipino martial arts this would be like long range stick fighting methods or styles, where the sticks can hit the hand or leg of the opponent and not the main body. Although the same things hold true like picking off the targets presented, baiting or drawing the opponent out to strike and then hitting them, etc. etc.

I believe most stick fights and most fights for that mater start in this range, I think most FMAs stress more instruction on the middle or close ranges.

You use evasion and footwork as a defence first rather than trapping blocking and guard work.

Machida is not the best example because his style is unique. But is an extreme example of out fighting. So it should be easier to see.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5iLr_TGc7y8

Thanks for the link it was interesting.

Another thing that was discussed. If the other guy has dominant grappling don't lead with kicks. You are very exposed to takedowns. Which is done in the first seconds of the fight.

I hadn't really considered this aspect because wouldn't the kicks be generally used in long range, or out fighting. Watching the opening take down of the fight, my first thought was he kicked wrong and that led to the take down. After watching it several times it appeared that the kick was executed properly as part of his strategy and I thought perhaps it was a bad choice to do against this particular opponent. (The kick is at 3:45 into the fight)

In this clip at 45 seconds in you see the same kick executed against another person by Machido and it is successful.

Lyoto Machida: "The Forgotten Front-Kick" - YouTube

Is this kick one that is used quite a bit in MMA? I'm referring to the kicking leg being extended while the body is leaning away. The still image at 45 seconds in this clip shows the body position I'm talking about.

 

[drop bear]

Thanks for the reply, I kind of figured as much but I wanted to get clarification first.

In the Filipino martial arts this would be like long range stick fighting methods or styles, where the sticks can hit the hand or leg of the opponent and not the main body. Although the same things hold true like picking off the targets presented, baiting or drawing the opponent out to strike and then hitting them, etc. etc.

I believe most stick fights and most fights for that mater start in this range, I think most FMAs stress more instruction on the middle or close ranges.



Thanks for the link it was interesting.



I hadn't really considered this aspect because wouldn't the kicks be generally used in long range, or out fighting. Watching the opening take down of the fight, my first thought was he kicked wrong and that led to the take down. After watching it several times it appeared that the kick was executed properly as part of his strategy and I thought perhaps it was a bad choice to do against this particular opponent. (The kick is at 3:45 into the fight)

In this clip at 45 seconds in you see the same kick executed against another person by Machido and it is successful.

Lyoto Machida: "The Forgotten Front-Kick" - YouTube

Is this kick one that is used quite a bit in MMA? I'm referring to the kicking leg being extended while the body is leaning away. The still image at 45 seconds in this clip shows the body position I'm talking about.

Interesting vid.

Yeah I see a lot of SD styles that infight. Which is interesting that for mma it is considered more likely to get you knocked out or put on your back. Mma does infight as well. Either due to a tactical choice like I can wrestle better than I can strike. Or an environmental choice. Like I run out of places to go.

The lean away is very common. The guy I spoke to has been changing his mind a bit about kicking. But at the moment is settled on a more karate styled front kick to round kick rather than the Thai style constant round kick. If they strike then you shouldn't pump with the handvto keep your guard up.if they shoot then pumping is better to defend the takedown. If the round kick hits more bent than normal the kick itself blocks the takedown. But you can counter that by pushing the knee across.

If you kick after successfull strikes then they are unlikely to shoot at all. If they are backpedalling you may not be able to shoot. Because they can backpedal more quickly to avoid it. ( and use circling and evasive footwork)

The shoot itself you don't catch the leg but a kind of knee tap.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0PswqHWDVc8

Mmaers have a whole system pretty much dedicated to not being put on their back. Due to the extreme suckyness of having someone sit on top and punch you for five minutes.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Interesting vid.

Yeah I see a lot of SD styles that infight. Which is interesting that for mma it is considered more likely to get you knocked out or put on your back. Mma does infight as well. Either due to a tactical choice like I can wrestle better than I can strike. Or an environmental choice. Like I run out of places to go.

SD styles in fight or spend more time on that aspect I believe because most encounters end up there or start there. I believe it is natural for sport forms such as MMA, MT, sport karate, boxing etc. etc. to spend more time in a longer range because you naturally start out at a longer range since it is mutual combatives.

Then the rules of the contest dictate how much time is spent there (or in any range). As in like kick boxing or boxing where throwing and take downs aren't allowed, more time is spent on developing the stand up "in fighting" game, where as in MMA since you have the take downs and such it is unwise to spend a lot of time there.

For instance in this clip of Demetrius Havanas who was a great kick boxer and had a good "long range" and "inside fight" game plan, he didn't have to worry about throws, knees or elbows so his inside fight was blasting the body with the basic body hooks then going to the head. Then let the guy go and do it again.

Demetrius 'The Greek' Havanas Vs. Bob Jarrett - YouTube

The lean away is very common. The guy I spoke to has been changing his mind a bit about kicking. But at the moment is settled on a more karate styled front kick to round kick rather than the Thai style constant round kick. If they strike then you shouldn't pump with the handvto keep your guard up.if they shoot then pumping is better to defend the takedown. If the round kick hits more bent than normal the kick itself blocks the takedown. But you can counter that by pushing the knee across.

Not being an MMAer and coming from a more karate type back ground, I would stick with the MT type round house kicks more so than the karate type straight line front kicks morphing into the round house kick. If this was the type your speaking of which kick Machida used in the clips we've both posted.

In the clip I posted on Machida; he appears to be using that kick as a set up for his technique, or an interruption to the opponent's technique, or perhaps as a peppering type technique to cause the guy pain and make him think twice about the distance. Anyway it appears that as the kick comes in it twists at the end which is why he caught the outside of the first fighters knee with a straight line kick.

In the first vid you posted (Machida vs. White) when I saw the kick I thought it looked wrong and he was off balanced, due to his body position, when I watched that vid that I posted and the person who did that vid. pointed out the lean as a counter, that peaked my interest because then I thought, OK it was intentional.

In this vid of Jean Yves Theriault a kick boxer from the 80's/90's who dominated the sport as well as the vid. on Demetrius (above) when the guys are kicking they are in a much more upright stance allowing the kicks to be sharper faster and the kicker to stay in balance. That type of front kick, pivoting into the roundhouse kick, was what was taught to me in the sport karate/TKD (back then) and it works well in these formats because of body positioning as well as the rules of the game.

Jean-Yves Theriault vs Mark Longo - YouTube

However in the vid you posted above at 6:45 where Machida gets taken down, the reason he got taken down was because he was (it appears to be) off balanced, due to his body position and how he applied that kick. 1) He was in a wider lower crouch and the opponent was farther away so he had to really reach for it and over extend. 2) He had to thrust forward using his hips facing semi front then twist so they go semi sideways to arc in the kick. This isn't a problem as the kick boxer's apply it, but in the lower stance I believe it becomes problematic since when he kicks he is leaning his body back to avoid the counter punch. Slow down the Machida vid. and you can see that he starts to lose his balance when his opponent taps or hinders his kicking leg on it's return as the punch is being thrown (but before any connection is made).

All of this to say that rules of the game dictate what can be used and what strategies rain supreme. MMA as the sport has evolved and has changed what works and what doesn't in the ring (such as your statement about in fighting, and where in kick boxing "in fighting" is something that was used quite a bit and very important). Balance and body mechanics are still vital.

If you kick after successfull strikes then they are unlikely to shoot at all. If they are backpedalling you may not be able to shoot. Because they can backpedal more quickly to avoid it. ( and use circling and evasive footwork)

Why? Not that I disagree with your statement, I just wondered your thoughts on why this is so.

The shoot itself you don't catch the leg but a kind of knee tap.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0PswqHWDVc8

Mmaers have a whole system pretty much dedicated to not being put on their back. Due to the extreme suckyness of having someone sit on top and punch you for five minutes.

This was an interesting vid. and thanks for posting it. It reminded me of a judo throw, I've seen where the leg is swept by your leg, similar principles involved I believe, but here the guy is using his hand, never thought of that.

 

[drop bear]

For the kick after the strikes. You generally throw when you are striking when they are striking or in the clinch.

So if they are going for a throw they will do it as you strike. Not backpedal and then shoot. And generally they will be more concerned about you shooting after your strikes. Which is why they are backpedaling. And if they are in wrestling defence mode it puts them at a disadvantage with a kick.

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

Due to my height Out fighting is my preferred striking range. The closer the opponent gets to me is when I switch mentality to start fore arm and elbow bashing to get the trap or clinch so I can get the lock, throw or both.

Its important to train all ranges ( long, short, clinch, One knee position and grappling) of fighting as well the different height levels (low stances, ducks and shoots) that are so often forgotten about.

 

[drop bear]

That knee tap I use in combination If the single leg attempt fails. But it is an all round under rated throw.

 

[drop bear]

SD styles in fight or spend more time on that aspect I believe because most encounters end up there or start there. I believe it is natural for sport forms such as MMA, MT, sport karate, boxing etc. etc. to spend more time in a longer range because you naturally start out at a longer range since it is mutual combatives.


This could almost be a thread in itself. But given a choice. Get out of that range. For security guards we are generally taught not to get close to people. Hence the Dan insanto style knife gun clip. But just in general you cant really stop a shot like a sucker if you are in the pocket.

The reactionary gap.

This is a SD concept.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nT2MRZ3M0jk

That has been reflected in mma almost independently.

 

[drop bear]

Due to my height Out fighting is my preferred striking range. The closer the opponent gets to me is when I switch mentality to start fore arm and elbow bashing to get the trap or clinch so I can get the lock, throw or both.

Its important to train all ranges ( long, short, clinch, One knee position and grappling) of fighting as well the different height levels (low stances, ducks and shoots) that are so often forgotten about.

If you are tall the you really should be playing to your advantages. As much as you can.