Original Samurai Arts?
- Thread starter Ronnin
- Start date
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with this emoticon here. :shrug: The smiley's are great for adding some fun and flavor to posts... but they work a lot better with some real words, too.
Saitama Steve
Blue Belt
Yes, that's pretty accurate. Ueshiba Morihei was also a member of Kukishin-ryu (The family line of the school is known as Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho.) for almost five decades.
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
You can start with Draeger's works and then follow up with the 3 books published by Koryu Books.
For a history on one of the oldest Japanese schools, check out the republished Katori Shinto-ryu book as well. Many ryu trace their lineage back to this school.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
I would also add books such as The Deity And The Sword by Dr Karl Friday. It covers primarily the Kashima Shinryu and it's development, but covers quite a lot of the development of the Samurai Arts as well.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay, complete mistake on my part...
The book I was actually refering to is "Legacies of the Sword" by Dr Karl Friday. Although "Deity and The Sword" is a great work in and of itself. For those unfamiliar, it is Otake Sensei's work on Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, covering Kenjutsu, Iai, Kodachijutsu, Nitojutsu, Naginatajutsu, and Sojutsu.
Whoops, sorry for any confusion...
The book I was actually refering to is "Legacies of the Sword" by Dr Karl Friday. Although "Deity and The Sword" is a great work in and of itself. For those unfamiliar, it is Otake Sensei's work on Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, covering Kenjutsu, Iai, Kodachijutsu, Nitojutsu, Naginatajutsu, and Sojutsu.
Whoops, sorry for any confusion...
Saitama Steve
Blue Belt
There are quite a few books out there on classical Japanese martial arts. All are rather informative and some are rather recent, while others are now rather old, but have accurate data.
Donn F. Draeger's three volume set - Classical Bujutsu, Classical Budo & Modern Bujutsu & Budo. An excellent starting point of reference.
Diane Skoss' three volume set - Koryu Bujutsu, Sword & Spirit and Keiko Shokon. Each book has a selection of essays giving an insight into different aspects of koryu.
Otake Risuke's Katori Shinto-ryu - Warrior Tradition. An updated and more readily available version of the 3 volume Deity & The Sword series in one volume with expanded chapters on yawara (jujutsu) and ninjutsu.
*The Deity & The Sword series has been out of print for over 10 years in the English language and is sought after as a collectors item these days*
Karl Friday's Legacies of the Sword. An excellent case study into Kashima Shin-ryu and it's origins.
Serge Mol's Classical Fighting Arts of Japan : A Complete Guide to Koryu Jujutsu. A thorough (yet slightly flawed in places) guide to koryu jujutsu ryuha, both extant and extinct.
Ellis Amdur's Old School. An excellent collection of essays on koryu bujutsu and samurai traditions.
All of these books were authored by practitioners of koryu bujutsu and have a very good grasp of Japanese warrior traditions.
Hope this helps.
Oh OK. I didn't know for sure.
Makes me wonder how much of Aikido is related to that school? The Daito ryu is usually what is identified as the source of Aikido technique. Is there... kukishin-ryu in Aikido as well?
Hey is that kukishinden ryu? Bujinkan? Ninja stuff?!!? I know that ninja/ninjutsu were mentioned in the book "Aikido and the dynamic sphere" by Oscar Ratti but I don't know if that book is really very informative?
Is this at all the thing or am I way off base?
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
The relation of Aikido to Kukishin-ryu? Let's just say nadda.
While a lot of people make the connection between Aiki Ju-Jutsu and Aikido, beacause a) the names are close, b) Ueshiba studied under Takeda, c) the techniqu/kata names are the same, I think that there are very distinct differences.
From what I've been told, (by people who have studied 1 or both arts) is that the feeling as Uke is TOTALLY different. The techniques therefor being night and day.
As for books written by Aikdo people for Aikdo people....*sigh* I'd find some better historical sources on the Japanese Budo. Ninjutsu in Aikido?? ..he he he he.. I don't think so.
Oh OK. I really don't know myself.
About aikido books written for aikido people, yeah I would guess so.
But I do seem to recall having read an historical report or two of Ueshiba doing some kind of ki trick and vanishing before peoples eyes, allegedly an example of (?principles behind?) the art of ninjutsu. Then again, I don't really know for sure (I read those years ago.)
It was just a curious question.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Hi,
This information originally comes from Ellis Amdur, who is a practitioner of two separate Koryu (Araki Ryu Kogusoku and Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu), as well as Aikido.
It is primarily concerned with Ueshiba Sensei's connection with Kukishin Ryu, and the influence Kukishin Ryu had on Aikido's solo Jo form.
In his work, Mr Amdur disusses the POSSIBILITY that O-Sensei may have studied the Kukishin Ryu (Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho) from members of the Kuki family, or members of the Ryu. The Kukishin Ryu is known for uses of various weapons, possibly most famously for staff weapons of various lengths, as well as teaching a form of Jujutsu which comes essentially from the Takagi Ryu. The Kuki family taught and trained their arts (Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Ryu) together since the time of Ohkuni Kihei (late 1600's). At some point in the Edo period, the Kuki family lost their Martial traditions (some stories intimate that one of their Shihan killed another man in a duel, and the losing duelist had family connections to the Shogun, who banned the Kuki family from practicing), until the intervention of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Takamatsu had recieved several branches of the Kukishin Ryu, and in his research of the arts, made contact with Kuki Takaharu, the then current head of the family. Kuki and Takamatsu shared their knowledge (Takamatsu with his knowledge of the Martial systems relating to the Kuki family, and Kuki Takaharu by providing the original records from his family's archives). Together, they put together a reconstruction of Kukishin Ryu, which is taught in a few different forms today.
Within the archives fo the Kuki family are some documents which state that Ueshiba Morihei, during a train journey from Ayabe to Tokyo, visited Asakusa-Kannon, where he saw two men engaged in "wonderful swordplay". These men were named Goto and Saito, and they told Ueshiba that the art he was watching was Kuki family martial arts. They then claim that Ueshiba Sensei asked to become their student, and they practiced "in a corner of the temple for some period".
Mr Amdur states that his research into the Ryu indicate that Ueshiba was most likely involved with the school only a matter of days, rather months or years. He was most likely taken through a very intense, and extensive "run-through" of the Kukishin Ryu curriculum (including the Takagi Ryu elements). And while it is highly unlikely that anyone, even O-Sensei would remember the technical details, but he would develop a very good "sense" for the tactics and strategies of the movements, also known as the "gokui".
At the very least, it seems true enough that Ueshiba met highly ranked members of the Kukishin Ryu, and they found him genuine enough in his skill and interest to show him something real from their art. At the time, they probably treated him as a guest, or training partner, and elevated themselves afterwards by refering to Ueshiba as a "student". This is not uncommon, so nothing to be offended by.
That said, it is not out of the question for Ueshiba to have continued his connection to these men, meeting up with them from time to time in Ayabe, where the Kuki family had a fair amount of land. There is a reference in the Kuki archives of Ueshiba seeking out Kuki Takaharu at an Omoto Dojo in the mid 1920's. At this meeting, Ueshiba is reported to have claimed "My budo is that of the Kukishinden", claiming to have possesion of soem of the Kuki family scrolls, and worshipping the same deity (Ushitora-no-Kimonkonjin). They met on friendly terms, and from that meeting established Takemusu Aikido, the template for modern Aikido (or, more completely, Amenomurakumo Samuhara Aikido).
To understand that encounter, it is important to note that Ueshiba was speaking in a symbolic sense. He was stating that his approach was the same as the Kukishinden tradition, in that they both use budo as a spiritual medium, and a way to connect with divinity, if not both utilising the same technical methods. It is also probably important to remember that the Kuki family had continued to practise their version of Shinto (Nakatomi Ryu Shinto), and Kuki Takaharu later became an honourary chief priest at the Aiki Shrine in Iwama.
Without going into the rest of Mr Amdur's piece, which deals in the technical comparisons between Kukishin and Aikido (as well as a few others) quite well, it seems clear that Ueshiba Sensei had a long-standing relationship with the Kuki family, and that probably did include learning at least aspects of their art. It really should be noted that it is entirely possible that Ueshiba deliberately sought out the Kuki family, as they are members of the nobility, and Ueshiba was always on the lookout for wealthy patrons in his younger years, just as the samurai sought patronage from Daimyo.
The influence may be there, but is appears to be buried, with Daito Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Kendo, and Kashima Shinto Ryu being more obvious.
And as for Kukishinden Ryu being Ninja/Ninjutsu, and therefore making Aikidoka Ninja? No, sorry, don't quite follow that. Kukishinden Ryu as taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan/KJJR, or Jinenkan show it to be far more Bujutsu, rather than Ninjutsu. Sure, due to close association there are similarities, but I feel it is not one of the Ninja systems (as it exists today).
This information originally comes from Ellis Amdur, who is a practitioner of two separate Koryu (Araki Ryu Kogusoku and Toda-ha Buko Ryu Naginatajutsu), as well as Aikido.
It is primarily concerned with Ueshiba Sensei's connection with Kukishin Ryu, and the influence Kukishin Ryu had on Aikido's solo Jo form.
In his work, Mr Amdur disusses the POSSIBILITY that O-Sensei may have studied the Kukishin Ryu (Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho) from members of the Kuki family, or members of the Ryu. The Kukishin Ryu is known for uses of various weapons, possibly most famously for staff weapons of various lengths, as well as teaching a form of Jujutsu which comes essentially from the Takagi Ryu. The Kuki family taught and trained their arts (Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Ryu) together since the time of Ohkuni Kihei (late 1600's). At some point in the Edo period, the Kuki family lost their Martial traditions (some stories intimate that one of their Shihan killed another man in a duel, and the losing duelist had family connections to the Shogun, who banned the Kuki family from practicing), until the intervention of Takamatsu Toshitsugu. Takamatsu had recieved several branches of the Kukishin Ryu, and in his research of the arts, made contact with Kuki Takaharu, the then current head of the family. Kuki and Takamatsu shared their knowledge (Takamatsu with his knowledge of the Martial systems relating to the Kuki family, and Kuki Takaharu by providing the original records from his family's archives). Together, they put together a reconstruction of Kukishin Ryu, which is taught in a few different forms today.
Within the archives fo the Kuki family are some documents which state that Ueshiba Morihei, during a train journey from Ayabe to Tokyo, visited Asakusa-Kannon, where he saw two men engaged in "wonderful swordplay". These men were named Goto and Saito, and they told Ueshiba that the art he was watching was Kuki family martial arts. They then claim that Ueshiba Sensei asked to become their student, and they practiced "in a corner of the temple for some period".
Mr Amdur states that his research into the Ryu indicate that Ueshiba was most likely involved with the school only a matter of days, rather months or years. He was most likely taken through a very intense, and extensive "run-through" of the Kukishin Ryu curriculum (including the Takagi Ryu elements). And while it is highly unlikely that anyone, even O-Sensei would remember the technical details, but he would develop a very good "sense" for the tactics and strategies of the movements, also known as the "gokui".
At the very least, it seems true enough that Ueshiba met highly ranked members of the Kukishin Ryu, and they found him genuine enough in his skill and interest to show him something real from their art. At the time, they probably treated him as a guest, or training partner, and elevated themselves afterwards by refering to Ueshiba as a "student". This is not uncommon, so nothing to be offended by.
That said, it is not out of the question for Ueshiba to have continued his connection to these men, meeting up with them from time to time in Ayabe, where the Kuki family had a fair amount of land. There is a reference in the Kuki archives of Ueshiba seeking out Kuki Takaharu at an Omoto Dojo in the mid 1920's. At this meeting, Ueshiba is reported to have claimed "My budo is that of the Kukishinden", claiming to have possesion of soem of the Kuki family scrolls, and worshipping the same deity (Ushitora-no-Kimonkonjin). They met on friendly terms, and from that meeting established Takemusu Aikido, the template for modern Aikido (or, more completely, Amenomurakumo Samuhara Aikido).
To understand that encounter, it is important to note that Ueshiba was speaking in a symbolic sense. He was stating that his approach was the same as the Kukishinden tradition, in that they both use budo as a spiritual medium, and a way to connect with divinity, if not both utilising the same technical methods. It is also probably important to remember that the Kuki family had continued to practise their version of Shinto (Nakatomi Ryu Shinto), and Kuki Takaharu later became an honourary chief priest at the Aiki Shrine in Iwama.
Without going into the rest of Mr Amdur's piece, which deals in the technical comparisons between Kukishin and Aikido (as well as a few others) quite well, it seems clear that Ueshiba Sensei had a long-standing relationship with the Kuki family, and that probably did include learning at least aspects of their art. It really should be noted that it is entirely possible that Ueshiba deliberately sought out the Kuki family, as they are members of the nobility, and Ueshiba was always on the lookout for wealthy patrons in his younger years, just as the samurai sought patronage from Daimyo.
The influence may be there, but is appears to be buried, with Daito Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Kendo, and Kashima Shinto Ryu being more obvious.
And as for Kukishinden Ryu being Ninja/Ninjutsu, and therefore making Aikidoka Ninja? No, sorry, don't quite follow that. Kukishinden Ryu as taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan/KJJR, or Jinenkan show it to be far more Bujutsu, rather than Ninjutsu. Sure, due to close association there are similarities, but I feel it is not one of the Ninja systems (as it exists today).
Hello all.
Hello Chris Parker
Wow that was a lot of interesting remarks.
I think my reply could get misunderstood so I will point out that I don't know myself and am only asking questions here. Not complaining.
Hopefully I don't get misunderstood. If accurate that is damned interesting information. But I sorta doubt the accuracy (through no fault of yours, you are citing Ellis Amdur, if I understood?) I doubt it but I'm going to ask anyway in case it turns out to be accurate.
Above you seem to imply to Takamatsu Toshitsugu, ?isn't that Hatsumi's teacher? Helped to 'revive' the Kuki schools back in the 1920-30's????
Are you saying that Kukishinden tenshin hyoho (the koryu?) was revived back in the 20-30's by or with the assistance of Hatsumi's teacher???
Okay. I am not complaining, I am only wondering (this is just a question.) Me I don't know? It occurs to me that this whole statement is maybe going to get jumped on here since it sounds like the X-kans are sorta taking credit for the modern kuki koryu schools.
Hey if that's true, it's very interesting.
But I find myself wondering who's going to say what here?
Chris, if I am coming across wrong, I apologize.
If that info is accurate then it's accurate. And I'd appreciate having been told this information if it's
true. I appreciate the conversation either way.
But I ain't going to pass up a chance to learn such relevant information if it's accurate.
Hey, is this accurate?
Hello Chris Parker
Wow that was a lot of interesting remarks.
I think my reply could get misunderstood so I will point out that I don't know myself and am only asking questions here. Not complaining.
Hopefully I don't get misunderstood. If accurate that is damned interesting information. But I sorta doubt the accuracy (through no fault of yours, you are citing Ellis Amdur, if I understood?) I doubt it but I'm going to ask anyway in case it turns out to be accurate.
Above you seem to imply to Takamatsu Toshitsugu, ?isn't that Hatsumi's teacher? Helped to 'revive' the Kuki schools back in the 1920-30's????
Are you saying that Kukishinden tenshin hyoho (the koryu?) was revived back in the 20-30's by or with the assistance of Hatsumi's teacher???
Okay. I am not complaining, I am only wondering (this is just a question.) Me I don't know? It occurs to me that this whole statement is maybe going to get jumped on here since it sounds like the X-kans are sorta taking credit for the modern kuki koryu schools.
Hey if that's true, it's very interesting.
But I find myself wondering who's going to say what here?
Chris, if I am coming across wrong, I apologize.
If that info is accurate then it's accurate. And I'd appreciate having been told this information if it's
true. I appreciate the conversation either way.
But I ain't going to pass up a chance to learn such relevant information if it's accurate.
Hey, is this accurate?
Mekugi
Orange Belt
Hi!
I'm a member of Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho and I wanted to chime in.
There is a connection between Moirhei Ueshiba, Aikido and Kukishin-ryu. If you haven't seen it already, you can check it out here:
Please see: http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/impact3_e.htm
If you have any more questions, please feel free to send me a message and I will try have them answered them for you.
Thanks!
-Russ
I'm a member of Kukishin Tenshin Hyoho and I wanted to chime in.
There is a connection between Moirhei Ueshiba, Aikido and Kukishin-ryu. If you haven't seen it already, you can check it out here:
Please see: http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/impact3_e.htm
If you have any more questions, please feel free to send me a message and I will try have them answered them for you.
Thanks!
-Russ
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Yes, Takamatsu is responsible for helping reconstruct the Kukishin Ryu from the Kuki family archives and the various branches he inheritted from his teachers. As stated, the Kuki family had retained their branch of Shinto, Nakatomi Ryu Shinto, but had lost their martial traditions. I don't know if that is "the x-kans taking credit for the Kuki koryu schools", though. While Takamatsu was instrumental, it would not have been achieved without the support, assistance, and documentation/knowledge held by Kuki Takaharu and the Kuki family archives.
Oh, and yes, the information is accurate from everything I've seen and read.
Oh, and yes, the information is accurate from everything I've seen and read.
Hello Chris Parker,
Well Chris, at this point I am tending to think that maybe it is so?
Russ Ebert just posted a reply above and didn't contest the remark at all which is darned interesting. No one else has contested the subject at all.
It is my guess then that there's enuf accuracy to the subject that nobody contested the remark. Which makes me wonder why it isn't more widely recognized as a relationship?
This, if as accurate as it appears it might be at this point, adds a whole new credence to the Kukishinden ryu of the X-kans one would think. I would like to explore that more over time. It's interesting.
Aikido... Kukishinden Tenshin Hyoho... Kukishinden ryu...X-kans.
Wow.
Double wow.
My compliments then for good info passed on, Chris.
TYVM
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