Organizations... I don't get it

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Steve,

We are not in disagreement in regards to organizations. As I elaborated in my first post they can be good provided they have a leader that is approachable and accessible. Where they can be bad is when the focus moves from training the best possible practitioner to making money! If they have a lot of super duper programs to make a fortune and the instructors are ubber rich off their teaching then I would be concerned that they would see me as $ instead of as a serious practitoner. Just my o2. as always!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

That does not mean that someone should not be compensated fairly for their services or that they should live like a pauper because I do not believe in that either!

 

[Steve]

The impression that I got from the presentation on the site was that Gracie University Online does award rank. I have no knowledge of the others.

Daniel

You may be right about the "Gracie University." If they do, that's a problem.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

With Gracie University I believe you can do online video testing.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Xue I will try to explain my reason for a large org., I have three sons that compete on a high level. I belong to A.A.U. which is the largest org for amature sport in general, they have one of the better grassroot programs for the sport of TKD, which is Olympic style since they started the cadet team that help train young potential athletes in thier dream of someday being a part of a National team, this is for the 10-13 year old childern. They have a wonderful program which is for the 14-17 years old and that is the Junior National team, they pick p all the expenses for each athlete and they go out of the country to get some international time as well.

Now we all know about the IOC, well here in the states that is the USAT the grovern the Olympic dreams here for us so we also belong to the uSAT for the few that want to try and make thier dreams come alive on the highest level the Olympics. I do not need them to train my people but I need them to help certain ones make the attempt to Olympic hopefully.

You see why certain people in the TKD world need certain orgs., I am not a fan but I do understand the steps that need to be taken to be a part fo the Olympic Dreams and I hope I have given you some insight into why certain orgs are needed for that sport of TKD.

Im just curious (Im not disagreeing with the above points), but why cant the olympics just allow anyone who does tkd? why do they have to belong to the WTF (or whatever it is)? as long as someone shows up to the qualifiers and fights within the ruleset why should it matter whether they are a member of an org? what problems would arise from this? By saying only tkdists affiliated with a certain org can compete instantly gets me thinking someone is profiting out of the concept. Maybe Im just too skeptical.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Im just curious (Im not disagreeing with the above points), but why cant the olympics just allow anyone who does tkd? why do they have to belong to the WTF (or whatever it is)? as long as someone shows up to the qualifiers and fights within the ruleset why should it matter whether they are a member of an org? what problems would arise from this? By saying only tkdists affiliated with a certain org can compete instantly gets me thinking someone is profiting out of the concept. Maybe Im just too skeptical.

Because the WTF is the IOC recognized international governing body for the sport. I know that with sport fencing, its the FIE. I'm sure that there's one for judo as well.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

Because the WTF is the IOC recognized international governing body for the sport. I know that with sport fencing, its the FIE. I'm sure that there's one for judo as well.

Daniel

It makes sense to me that if someone wants to compete in a WTF event, they would need to belong to the WTF. But do they need to train in WTF TKD? I mean, could someone simply pay the dues or whatever to compete? If so, I don't see a real problem with it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It makes sense to me that if someone wants to compete in a WTF event, they would need to belong to the WTF. But do they need to train in WTF TKD? I mean, could someone simply pay the dues or whatever to compete? If so, I don't see a real problem with it.

The WTF makes the rule set, but each country has its own affiliate. USAT is the United States WTF NGB. If you want to be on the US Olympic Taekwondo team, USAT is the organization that you need to be associated with as I understand it.

There is no WTF membership, nor are there member schools. There are USAT member schools. Ranking is currently through the Kukkiwon, though I understand that the WTF may be taking that over as well.

There is no 'WTF' taekwondo either. There is Kukki taekwondo, which is directed by the Kukkiwon. The WTF regulates the sport of taekwondo (though I suppose that this is subject to change, given what is going on right now) and sets the competition rules under which participants fight.

Not sure about national events, but so far as I know, if you enter a tournament that is "WTF" you basically have to fight under that rule set.

Daniel

 

[Steve]

The WTF makes the rule set, but each country has its own affiliate. USAT is the United States WTF NGB. If you want to be on the US Olympic Taekwondo team, USAT is the organization that you need to be associated with as I understand it.

There is no WTF membership, nor are there member schools. There are USAT member schools. Ranking is currently through the Kukkiwon, though I understand that the WTF may be taking that over as well.

Not sure about national events, but so far as I know, if you enter a tournament that is "WTF" you basically have to fight under that rule set.

Daniel

Thanks, but I don't think I asked my question clearly. Say I train with a guy out of his garage in TKD and want to try out for the Olympics. Or maybe I'm a recognized black belt in ATA TKD. Can I simply join the USAT and show up at the try outs?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

You can Steve but your chance to make it is slim and none. There is a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering that goes on to make the US Olympic team. Quite often it is who you know and what they will do for you plus your god given talent! So just because you are the best at your weight division will not necessary insure your being on the team. (though it would definitely help)

 

[Steve]

You can Steve but your chance to make it is slim and none. There is a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering that goes on to make the US Olympic team. Quite often it is who you know and what they will do for you plus your god given talent! So just because you are the best at your weight division will not necessary insure your being on the team. (though it would definitely help)

Ah, see... that's getting into a questionable area. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Xue Sheng]

You can Steve but your chance to make it is slim and none. There is a lot of behind the scenes maneuvering that goes on to make the US Olympic team. Quite often it is who you know and what they will do for you plus your god given talent! So just because you are the best at your weight division will not necessary insure your being on the team. (though it would definitely help)

OK the first 3 words of your post threw me into a flashback about an old Jethro Tull song...."But you're wrong, Steve: you see, it's only solitaire"

This is one of the things I really don't get about orgs.... you may be the best but because of your org affiliation you may not get it...therefore you are not putting up your best team in the Olympics... I don't get it

 

[Bruno@MT]

Well, 'best' is a funny term.

When you want to go to the olympics, you have to be the best at sports TKD, which is IIRC means a different thing. Having a proven trackrecord of being successful under these rules is a huge plus over the uncertainty of someone who just shows up for the tryouts. Even if that person should win, there is no guarantee that he will always fight according to the WTF rules, that he will perform well in front of thousands of people, that he can handle the mental pressure of a tournament that runs over several days, etc...

 

[terryl965]

It makes sense to me that if someone wants to compete in a WTF event, they would need to belong to the WTF. But do they need to train in WTF TKD? I mean, could someone simply pay the dues or whatever to compete? If so, I don't see a real problem with it.

Steve I will try and answer this for you, planely put yes, the problem is you have to do all the qualifier as well. Anybody that wishes to join the USAT and become a member and play by the ruleset is allow to fight period. Now the better question is will they be able to win, I have seen people like Arlene Limas come from a Kung Fu background and play the game but she was a one in a million person. The average person cannot do this because of timing and rule set. You need to be a season veteran in the sport to be a top teer fighter in it now a days.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Steve I will try and answer this for you, planely put yes, the problem is you have to do all the qualifier as well. Anybody that wishes to join the USAT and become a member and play by the ruleset is allow to fight period. Now the better question is will they be allow to win,

Do you mean allowed or able? The rest of your post indicates that able would be the operative word. 'Allow' implies artificially preventing them from doing so.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

Do you mean allowed or able? The rest of your post indicates that able would be the operative word. 'Allow' implies artificially preventing them from doing so.

Daniel

able would be a better term sorry. It is real hard with timing if you never played the game.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

able would be a better term sorry. It is real hard with timing if you never played the game.

No worries.

Given the shenanigans played on a political level, 'allow' may also be an issue, so I thought I'd ask.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Well, 'best' is a funny term.

When you want to go to the olympics, you have to be the best at sports TKD, which is IIRC means a different thing. Having a proven trackrecord of being successful under these rules is a huge plus over the uncertainty of someone who just shows up for the tryouts. Even if that person should win, there is no guarantee that he will always fight according to the WTF rules, that he will perform well in front of thousands of people, that he can handle the mental pressure of a tournament that runs over several days, etc...

Originally I was not focusing on TKD when I started this post but it appears that is where it went to, which I find rather interesting, I was saying Organizations in general for all Martial Arts.

But staying with TKD, I have a Question or two;

Are there other organizations that would that would prove that someone could handle the mental pressure of a tournament that runs over several days?

I admit I know nothing about TKD orgs or Olympic rules as they apply to TKD but is it possible for someone that fights in a tournament in another organization to learn the rules that were needed to compete?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Another question

Do other countries us the same approach when it comes to selecting members for its Taekwondo team for the Olympics?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Originally I was not focusing on TKD when I started this post but it appears that is where it went to, which I find rather interesting, I was saying Organizations in general for all Martial Arts.

But staying with TKD, I have a Question or two;

Are there other organizations that would that would prove that someone could handle the mental pressure of a tournament that runs over several days?

I admit I know nothing about TKD orgs or Olympic rules as they apply to TKD but is it possible for someone that fights in a tournament in another organization to learn the rules that were needed to compete?

There are many large tkd clubs (with literally thousands of members) who spar using olympic tkd ruleset but are not affiliated with the kukkiwon/WTF and therefore are unable to compete in the olympics. Many clubs were once affiliated years ago but chose to discontinue their affiliation due to the direction kukkiwon tkd was heading but still spar using the the same ruleset.