One of the Hawaiian Islands is for sale!

[Makalakumu]

http://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/print-edition/2012/06/15/david-murdock-trying-to-sell-lanai.html

Harry Saunders, president of Castle & Cooke Hawaii Inc., has confirmed one of the biggest rumors of 2012: The island of Lanai is for sale.


The sixth-largest Hawaiian island is owned by Los Angeles billionaire David Murdock, who in 1985 took control of it as a result of his purchase of Castle & Cooke.

Here's what Castle & Cooke have to say about Lanai.

An easy 25-minute plane ride from the hustle and bustle of Honolulu or a scenic 45-minute ferry ride from Maui – and a world away from both – lies the enchanting Island of Lana‘i. No stoplights and no crowds except for the colorful reef fish and the stars in the night sky. Miles of cool green uplands, country roads, wide pristine beaches, and a little plantation town with a smile for residents and visitors alike.

Two communities embody the beauty and diversity of Lana‘i.


At Ko‘ele, experience the wide-open spaces, misty mornings and spectacular sunsets of this unique mountain retreat. The Pines at Ko‘ele offer luxury single-family detatched condominiums with views of the Ko‘ele highlands and the Experience at Ko‘ele golf course. Two floor plans offering 2 to 4 bedrooms are available, with living areas ranging from 1,630 to 2,166 square feet.


At Manele, enjoy the infinite Pacific horizons from your lanai, or take a dip in the clear waters of nearby Hulopo‘e Bay, a favorite hangout of spinner dolphins. Here, among landscapes of indescribable beauty and a people of renowned hospitality, exists a community unlike any other with residential opportunities that will exceed your expectations.


At either location, amenities and pampering await you at the Four Seasons Resorts Lana‘i, along with activities that range from world-class golf and scuba diving to country pleasures such as horseback riding, croquet and sporting clays.


Serene Lana‘i is also the perfect place to unplug, unwind and let the day unfold gently. Buyers who choose one of our Lana‘i Luxury Homes tell us that it just feels right to be there, every single time. With luxury condominiums, homes and home sites to choose from, and the special access and privileges of Island Club membership available, there is a Lana‘i Luxury Home that’s just right for you.

And if you have a surprisingly small amount of...

[h=3]Source says Pineapple Island could go for as much as $500 million[/h]

You could actually buy this island.

This is very interesting because there are 8,000 people who live on the island and thousands more that work or visit there. There are huge resorts and all kinds of businesses on the island. A sale like this is actually a huge deal and brings up all kinds of property rights issues. This much land hasn't been for sale in Hawaii since the days of King Kamehameha.

Thoughts?

 

[Big Don]

Merv Griffin, and Marlon Brando both owned islands. I always thought that was really cool. You could buy it for me...

 

[Makalakumu]

That island was conquered and sold by a Hawaiian King in the first place. Is that a proper precedent to establish property rights?

 

[Gentle Fist]

I'll take two... oh wait they're how much?

 

[elder999]

That island was conquered and sold by a Hawaiian King in the first place. Is that a proper precedent to establish property rights?

Is there any other???

 

[Buka]

I haven't been there in a few years, but I've always liked it. Has kind of an odd feel to it, though, maybe because there's so few people around. (But you have to love an island with no traffic lights.) I hope a good person buys it.

 

[ballen0351]

I'm sure mark Cuban will buy it he owns everything else

 

[granfire]

Is there any other???

Like bopping the occupants upside the head?

 

[Wo Fat]

If I were the current owner, I'd "lend" the money to a consortium of Kanaka Maoli so that they could buy the island.

Nah, can't have Native Hawaiians owning their land.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is there any other???

How did you acquire your property? Did you march an army in and kill everyone who lived there? Is there a peaceful way of establishing property rights?

One of the issues we have in Hawaii is that the whole archipelago was taken over shortly after it was "discovered" by Europeans. Later, the Hawaiian Monarchy divided up the land and doled it out as they saw fit. They also sold large chunks of it to people with lots of money, never mind the people that actually lived there and were using the land at the time. Two of the islands were sold off in this fashion.

The whole thing strikes me as a modern day example of feudalism. There's a guy in a castle somewhere who gets his head stuck on a pike and now the land has a new "owner". **** the serfs, they can be thrown off willy nilly. Anyway it's just an interesting modern day example of how feudalism actually works and it's kind of weird that we have this sort of thing in the good ole USA...

On a different note, I have a theory about property in Hawaii. Huge tracks of land are locked up in Trusts that were handed down from the initial conquests of King Kamehameha I. In a lot of these trusts, nothing is happening. No one is using the land despite historical precedent that people actually used the land before it was conquered. On Lanai, a small portion of the land is allowed to be used by the people. Consequently, there really isn't that much economic activity on this island. The way that the owners have historically let it be used have led to it's ridiculously low price. My guess is that if the land was sold to anyone who wanted a portion of it, economic activity would explode on the island. We'd see all kinds of new businesses and wealth flowing off of Lanai.

All of this hints at a social experiment that could reveal the relationship of property to humans. When governments come in and control everyone's property by the point of a gun, the wealth and productivity of that property is destroyed. When people are allowed to establish property rights and are free from control, the wealth and productivity of property increases.

 

[elder999]

How did you acquire your property? Did you march an army in and kill everyone who lived there? Is there a peaceful way of establishing property rights?
.

Don't often say this, John, but you think too much-leads to over thinking things beyond their true simplicity.

I mean, honestly-can anyone truly own the land, or anything? All sorts of wealth and business flows ut of Wyoming, where there still is a population of about one person for every ten square miles, and large portions of land owned by corporate entities, government agencies, and private trusts, as well as a few individuals.
Wealth and productivity increase where they exist.
(See what I did with that "period," there? :lfao )

 

[Makalakumu]

Don't often say this, John, but you think too much-leads to over thinking things beyond their true simplicity.

LOL, you aren't the first person to say this, but sometimes among the numerous dead ends, I find something valuable from the experience.

I mean, honestly-can anyone truly own the land, or anything?

I own my body. I own the actions of my body. I own the product of the actions of my body. The product of the actions of my body can influence a portion of land. Therefore, I own a portion of land. Is that argument irrational?

All sorts of wealth and business flows out of Wyoming, where there still is a population of about one person for every ten square miles, and large portions of land owned by corporate entities, government agencies, and private trusts, as well as a few individuals.

Wyoming is a big place and is actually a perfect example of what I was talking about. An individual can go to Wyoming and buy some land. They can be productive with it. Hence, Wyoming produces a lot of wealth. On Lanai, an individual cannot buy the land. 98% is controlled by a small group of people who dictate what can or cannot be done on the island. As it stands now, huge tracts of land lie unused and unvisited. Imagine if more people could be creative and find uses for the land to increase their wealth.

Wealth and productivity increase where they exist.

Lanai is relatively dry because it is located in the rain shadow of Haleakala on Maui. However, it still has some very productive soil. It didn't work out to turn the whole island into a pineapple farm because that crop needs more water then is available. However, other agricultural products may be more productive. Lanai is easily reached from the populations of Maui and Molokai. People on Oahu regularly import products from the Outer Islands for their consumption. Lanai has the potential to produce a lot of food.

Also, as it stands now, the island has two massive resorts on it that are very expensive to visit. If you want to stay there, you pretty much have to stay at those places. If there were more options that were less expensive, more people would come to the island and more people could afford to make a living there. There is excellent horseback riding, there is excellent hunting, there are excellent beaches on Lanai, there are great places to fish, there is a lot of potential for wealth there...

 

[elder999]

I own my body. I own the actions of my body. I own the product of the actions of my body. The product of the actions of my body can influence a portion of land. Therefore, I own a portion of land. Is that argument irrational?

You don't own your body, any more than you are your body. You will be separated from your body-no matter how you try to keep it, or how much you try it will ultimately prove not to have belonged to you at all-it is, at best, on loan.

Yes, the rest of the argument is irrational and silly, being built on a fallacy of "ownership."

 

[Makalakumu]

You don't own your body, any more than you are your body. You will be separated from your body-no matter how you try to keep it, or how much you try it will ultimately prove not to have belonged to you at all-it is, at best, on loan.

Yes, the rest of the argument is irrational and silly, being built on a fallacy of "ownership."

Interesting point. Essentially, you are saying that since all of the matter in my body is "borrowed" and will be recycled into something else, I don't actually "own" my body.

Perhaps I can own the order in which that matter is contorted? Perhaps that order is what constitutes my personhood. If that is the case, then the rest of my argument for ownership could flow out of that.

 

[elder999]

Perhaps I can own the order in which that matter is contorted?

Tell that to a paraplegic, quadruple amputee, epileptic or even a mere congenital klutz with Olympic aspirations-or, speaking of spirations, someone like me who suffers from COPD-all people who are-or will ultimately be-quite incapable of "owning the order in which that matter is contorted."

Just as you are.

Perhaps that order is what constitutes my personhood.

That order is an illusion-as is ownership.

You don't even "own" your "personhood."

If that is the case, then the rest of my argument for ownership could flow out of that.

Nope. Fallacious, silly and vain. Your argument is based on sand, from which nothing flows.......

 

[Makalakumu]

That order is an illusion-as is ownership.

You don't even "own" your "personhood."

Why is the order of the matter that composes my body an illusion? Why don't I own my personhood...or perhaps I should say consciousness? Is this also an illusion? If so, why?

I argue that my consciousness is real, that my body is real, that the order that contorts the matter of my body is real. I argue that I exist, therefore I am and thus, I own myself. If those things are illusions, why do you argue this?

 

[Carol]

It sounds to me as if Lanai may have a turbulent future, regardless.

The island is for sale, yet it is unclear whether it could actually be sold. The population is dwindling. The resorts on it are losing staggering numbers of millions each year. The firm which behind it all is no longer in Hawaii having relocated to LA. Ahhhh...first world problems...

 

[Makalakumu]

It sounds to me as if Lanai may have a turbulent future, regardless.

The island is for sale, yet it is unclear whether it could actually be sold. The population is dwindling. The resorts on it are losing staggering numbers of millions each year. The firm which behind it all is no longer in Hawaii having relocated to LA. Ahhhh...first world problems...

No kidding. I'm interested in this because it's an interesting social laboratory to test some ideas about property rights. I think that all of the problems that Lanai is experiencing can directly be traced back to it being forcefully taken and controlled. I think this idea can be extrapolated onto all government control of property.

 

[Jenna]

Interesting point. Essentially, you are saying that since all of the matter in my body is "borrowed" and will be recycled into something else, I don't actually "own" my body.

Perhaps I can own the order in which that matter is contorted? Perhaps that order is what constitutes my personhood. If that is the case, then the rest of my argument for ownership could flow out of that.

Your personhood is not comprised of anything tangible.. Cut off your arm it is still you.. You are not your body.. and what you are cannot be owned. This land cannot be owned because it was never anyone's to own.. The doyens and elders in all original civilisations would perhaps appreciate this truth best I think. The ownership in law of this land is an arbitrary concept and but it is the one we must abide by..

 

[elder999]

Why is the order of the matter that composes my body an illusion?

Choose an order of the matter that composes your body that includes it growing wings, and fly. Better yet, go to a high place, and jump off and fly.

Try to lower the amount of oxygen in the matter that composes your body, and see how long you can maintain the illusion that it actually belongs to you, and how much control you have over it.

Try to lower the amount of water in the matter that composes you body, and see how long you can maintain the illusion that it actually belongs to you.

Try to lower the amount of blood in the matter that composes your body, and see how long you can maintain the illusion that it actually belongs to you.

In fact, I'd say that if there's any "ownership" going on, it works the other way, and you are "owned" by your body, but there is no ownership whatsoever-your body-and its "order" are wholly on loan, at best.
Why don't I own my personhood...or perhaps I should say consciousness? Is this also an illusion? If so, why?

I argue that my consciousness is real, that my body is real, that the order that contorts the matter of my body is real.

I'll accept all of that, for the time being, but not what follows-real they may be, but you do not own "the order that contorts the matter," nor the matter itself, nor, really, your consciousness.

Where does your "consciousness" go in NREM, stage 3 sleep? Does it cease to exist? If you "own" it, try doing without REM and NREM sleep, and see how long you can maintain the illusion that it belongs to you. :lol:

I argue that I exist, therefore I am and thus, I own myself. If those things are illusions, why do you argue this?

We can argue your existance-we can even accept the premise that "you" do, in fact, exist. Mere existance, though, is not a basis for ownership-you cannot say that you own "yourself" merely because of existance, especially since "yourself," selfhood, and personhood remain completely undefined terms, and, as we've already demonstrated, you can lay no claim to ownership of your consciousness, which also, btw, remains undefined.

Your personhood is not comprised of anything tangible.. Cut off your arm it is still you.. You are not your body.. and what you are cannot be owned. This land cannot be owned because it was never anyone's to own.. The doyens and elders in all original civilisations would perhaps appreciate this truth best I think. The ownership in law of this land is an arbitrary concept and but it is the one we must abide by..

What she said, but our discussion's more fun....:lfao: