One-Handed or Two-Handed control when dealing with a gun?

[JamesDraegun]

In class, when taught how do defend against a guy with a gun, we use only one hand to control the gun, and another to hit (to stun him), then proceed into a strip of the weapon.
While I believe the strip/disarms of the weapons are effective, I somewhat worry about the control phase of the defense, for example:
Lets say someone is straight in front of you, pointing a gun to your head/chest area, and your in neutral/passive stance (with hands up in a "I give up position"). We're taught to grab the barrel of the gun (left hand to their right, right hand to their left), bring the barrel down, and strike their face a couple of times, stunning him, then strip the weapon.

I've read some articles (on defense against guns) saying when dealing with a gun, you should use two hands to control gun (while using knees, shin scrapes, toe stomps, and other hits to stun him), saying that under stress, you may not have the power, control, or hand-to-eye coordination to use one hand?

While I believe that each method has its strengths and weaknesses, I want to hear other's thoughts on this idea and anything else on weapon disarms in general.:asian:

 

[Drac]

James.
My opinion is to always go with 2 hands..Since I have no knowledge of Krav Maga techniques I can only speak from experience and you can generate a lot twisting/stripping power using 2 hands..I'm others will have better opinions...

 

[MJS]

In class, when taught how do defend against a guy with a gun, we use only one hand to control the gun, and another to hit (to stun him), then proceed into a strip of the weapon.
While I believe the strip/disarms of the weapons are effective, I somewhat worry about the control phase of the defense, for example:
Lets say someone is straight in front of you, pointing a gun to your head/chest area, and your in neutral/passive stance (with hands up in a "I give up position"). We're taught to grab the barrel of the gun (left hand to their right, right hand to their left), bring the barrel down, and strike their face a couple of times, stunning him, then strip the weapon.

I've read some articles (on defense against guns) saying when dealing with a gun, you should use two hands to control gun (while using knees, shin scrapes, toe stomps, and other hits to stun him), saying that under stress, you may not have the power, control, or hand-to-eye coordination to use one hand?

While I believe that each method has its strengths and weaknesses, I want to hear other's thoughts on this idea and anything else on weapon disarms in general.:asian:

Speaking on a basic KM level, IMO, I believe that is the idea or assumption that KM goes on....redirect the weapon with one hand, throwing multiple strikes with the other, adding forward pressure, in hopes that this'll stun the attacker enough to get an effective disarm. I don't believe that the strikes are designed to get a KO, but instead to provide a momentary distraction to get the disarm.

Personally, I'm more inclined to go with what Drac stated, and use 2 hands. IMHO, I feel that any time one is faced with a weapon, gaining control should be on the top of the list.

Mike

 

[bobbo]

what you where taught in class is a basic disarm for any type of weapon. But in arnes, the choice target to hit is the arm and not so much the head. The strike is to cause the attacker to release his grip of the weapon. What little I do know of krav maga, which also is in arnes, is that when dealing with guns you don't want to grab the barrel of the gun (and rarely the gun itself) unless there is no other choice. You want to grab the attacker's hand or wrist at first. And above all don't struggle with the gun, because the gun will more than likely go off in a struggle.

 

[HKphooey]

IMO, two handed is works better for full control of the gun in situations where others may be in danger because of your actions. Two handed grabs give you the abilty to imobilize the gun (and or hammer mechanism) and the gunman's trigger finger.

 

[MJS]

what you where taught in class is a basic disarm for any type of weapon. But in arnes, the choice target to hit is the arm and not so much the head. The strike is to cause the attacker to release his grip of the weapon. What little I do know of krav maga, which also is in arnes, is that when dealing with guns you don't want to grab the barrel of the gun (and rarely the gun itself) unless there is no other choice. You want to grab the attacker's hand or wrist at first. And above all don't struggle with the gun, because the gun will more than likely go off in a struggle.

Thats interesting that you say that. All of the KM disarms that I've seen, have the defender grabbing the gun to redirect. Yes, at some point and time, the wrist may be grabbed, but its always in conjunction with the gun as well.

Mike

 

[bobbo]

i realize that what i wrote may seem wierd to some, but it's true. The reason why you don't grab the gun to redirect is because in a stressful real life situation you will jerk on the gun if you grab it, which in turn will more than likely cause the gun to go off. Then bang bang you're dead. It is a matter of being able to do the right thing in a stressful situation.

 

[MJS]

i realize that what i wrote may seem wierd to some, but it's true. The reason why you don't grab the gun to redirect is because in a stressful real life situation you will jerk on the gun if you grab it, which in turn will more than likely cause the gun to go off. Then bang bang you're dead. It is a matter of being able to do the right thing in a stressful situation.

I wasn't disputing your theory, just stating that in all of the KM disarms that I've been exposed to, a grab was always done to the gun. Of course, putting yourself out of the line of fire is also key, during the initial movement. I'd think though, that no matter what the method of disarming is, there is a chance that the gun will go off.

Mike

 

[samurai69]

I wasn't disputing your theory, just stating that in all of the KM disarms that I've been exposed to, a grab was always done to the gun. Of course, putting yourself out of the line of fire is also key, during the initial movement. I'd think though, that no matter what the method of disarming is, there is a chance that the gun will go off.

Mike

The last set of gun disarms i saw (with simunition) had the 2 hand disarm to the gun first and taken to the out side with no hits to the target...........inside and 1 arm both had the defender getting hit.

 

[HKphooey]

i realize that what i wrote may seem wierd to some, but it's true. The reason why you don't grab the gun to redirect is because in a stressful real life situation you will jerk on the gun if you grab it, which in turn will more than likely cause the gun to go off. Then bang bang you're dead. It is a matter of being able to do the right thing in a stressful situation.

I most cases I teach that the gun is never jerked towards oneself, always twisted toward the attacker. Also, that is where the second hand comes in, control the trigger finger.

Samurai69, we did the same experiment, with the same results. I have learned a bunch of one handed defenses and about 80% have you going to the inside of the gun to control the gun and strike. I do not like going to the inside of the gun if i do not have to.

Bobbo, i have seen some guys twho were great with the defenses you mentioned and you need to work with what is most comfortable to you. When it comes to gun dissarms, It is worth some reality training to see if you can really be that fast or effective with any attacks, one or two handed.

Great thread.

 

[Drac]

It is worth some reality training to see if you can really be that fast or effective with any attacks, one or two handed.Great thread.

.

That about says it all..Practice ,Pratice ,Pratice. multiple repetitions..What is comfortable for you might not be for the next person.What realy matters is survival..

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

.

That about says it all..Practice ,Pratice ,Pratice. multiple repetitions..What is comfortable for you might not be for the next person.What realy matters is survival..

Your definately right there, practice, practice and more practice.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com

 

[Cruentus]

I will say that I am very happy with the Krav 1-handed method of dealing with a gun, and with grabing the gun barrel instead of the hand.

Logic might dictate other things; two hands being better then 1, don't grab the weapon grab the hand, etc. But, what is most important isn't a logical arguement based on variables that might not exist as thought in the fight; what is most important is what gets the results.

I am not a Krav player, so I have no vested interest in being a spokesperson; just want to give credit where it is due. Someone in our network is a Krav player and that is where we got the method from; however we did modify it slightly to suit us.

Anyways, the 1 handed method in the manner which Krav does it is a good maneuver, and I prefer it over other two handed methods. It gives you control over the weapon while allowing your to strike the person to change his focus (from trying to shot to trying to protect his eyes and face) at which point it buys you time and opportunity to pull your weapon or attempt a disarm.

Coming from someone who runs The Combat Researchers Guild, where we put many different methods to the test, I can say that I would put the Krav 1 handed method against the gun up against any other at the moment.

Paul

 

[samurai69]

, It is worth some reality training to see if you can really be that fast or effective with any attacks, one or two handed.

Great thread.

I would definately agree with that

airsoft with paint pellets let you know when you get it wrong....

but its always a practice, i am not sure 100% wheter i would be able to effect a good and safe gun defence in a real situation

the only time i was held up with a gun it was a sawn off and i had also had a few drinks too many.........lukily my run-fu was at its best and we legged it........:CTF:

 

[HKphooey]

The basic principles need to be considered with any technique you may chose.

Redirect the line of fire
Control the weapon
Counterattack
Disarm

Most KM schools teach this principle, but is also basic common sense. I really like some of the KM material, but also try to work my legs into the equation. There can be a strike (not with the extra hand), but the knee or instep.

Redirect the line of fire - this can be a tricky one if you are a LEO or security. Normally one looks out for numro uno, but is these situations you need to consider those around you. The attacker may still fire the weapon in their direction. So just because you are out of danger does not mean someone is not going to get hurt.

Paul, great input as usual. Hope all is going well with Tulisan!

 

[Drac]

I would definately agree with that

airsoft with paint pellets let you know when you get it wrong....

but its always a practice, i am not sure 100% wheter i would be able to effect a good and safe gun defence in a real situation

We train the rookie officers with airsoft,a great teaching aid and the sting is a great teacher

lukily my run-fu was at its best and we legged it

I'd a been right with you..

 

[HKphooey]

We train the rookie officers with airsoft,a great teaching aid and the sting is a great teacher.

And I am sure they take a few extra shots now and then!

 

[pstarr]

We favor a one-handed method of seizing the weapon since a two-handed grab reduces your ability to maneuver your body out of the line of fire. We follow a simple set of guidelines:

1. Create the opportune moment. That is, psychologically distract the opponent by glancing behind him (as if someone is there) or get him to speak to you (a person's reaction time is reduced by as much as 50% when he is speaking, especially if he's giving an order).

2. Get your body out of the line of fire while you....

3. ....acquire control of the weapon and move the muzzle away from you. If at all possible, try to prevent the weapon from discharging.

4. Strike immediately. It needn't be a disabling blow, but should (at the very least) get the scumbag's attention.

5. Maintaining control of the (direction of the) muzzle, kill him.

And as has been said before, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. And do it regularly. If you back off for a couple of months, your timing gets rusty...

 

[Cruentus]

The basic principles need to be considered with any technique you may chose.

Redirect the line of fire
Control the weapon
Counterattack
Disarm

These are good points to go by, and an informative post.

Paul, great input as usual. Hope all is going well with Tulisan!

Things are going pretty good, thanks! Things look good on your good looking websites too. I'll hopefully get around to adding more to mine soon (got to get dreamweaver to make my life easier, and consult with Bob, the webmaster supreme.)

Paul

 

[Cruentus]

We favor a one-handed method of seizing the weapon since a two-handed grab reduces your ability to maneuver your body out of the line of fire. We follow a simple set of guidelines:

1. Create the opportune moment. That is, psychologically distract the opponent by glancing behind him (as if someone is there) or get him to speak to you (a person's reaction time is reduced by as much as 50% when he is speaking, especially if he's giving an order).

2. Get your body out of the line of fire while you....

3. ....acquire control of the weapon and move the muzzle away from you. If at all possible, try to prevent the weapon from discharging.

4. Strike immediately. It needn't be a disabling blow, but should (at the very least) get the scumbag's attention.

5. Maintaining control of the (direction of the) muzzle, kill him.

And as has been said before, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. And do it regularly. If you back off for a couple of months, your timing gets rusty...

I don't know what the experiences are of people here, and I am not sure if what I am about to mention is our evolved version of the Krav method, or if it is done in Krav as well (again, don't do krav, just borrowed this particular manaeuver and we ended up modifying it, and it was long enough ago where I can't distinguish what we modified from the origional)..

What is very important in making this thing work, we found, was that once the weapon was grabbed, you lock your arm down and into your opponents body with the barrel pointing away from you. Once the weapon is firmly gripped and that arm is locked, even with two hands he is unlikely to be able to redirect the barrel to shot you. Without locking your arm into his body, he has too much leverage and your in danger of being shot in the struggle. Test this with an airsoft you don't mind trashing, and you'll see what I mean...

Just wanted to add that little piece...:ultracool

Paul Janulis