On Making Comparisons, and have I been duped?

[Flying Crane]

I guess it's just human nature, to make comparisons, and it is certainly rampant in the martial arts.

We train in an art, we have invested time and energy and belief and loyalty in the art and in our teachers, and we want to know our energy and efforts and loyalties have not been wasted.

We look at what someone else is doing. Maybe we see something good and we decide to learn that as well. Maybe we judge it harshly because it's different from what we do, and we don't want to think our time and energy and effort and loyalty has been wasted. So maybe we get defensive and criticize what others do. Maybe the criticism is well-placed, maybe it isn't. But we are making a comparison.

We see that others not only practice a different system, but the very approach to training is vastly different. It challenges our notions of what is the proper way to train. Have we been going about it all wrong from the beginning? Is KATA a waste of time and useless? Is KATA necessary? Must you train in grappling in order to defeat a grappler? Is a boxer a better fighter than a karate guy? Is Kung Fu just a bunch of flowery nonsense? Once again, we are making a comparison and questioning our foundations. And we don't want to think our time and energy and effort and loyalty has been misplaced.

Hmm... Maybe those of us who practice traditional arts in a traditional manner are hopelessly outdated. Only those who practice MMA and are willing to put it all on the line in the Octagon can really fight. Maybe only the "Reality Based Martial Arts" have the real monopoly on what works. I guess that means that everything else is a "Fantasy Based" martial art...Has my time and effort and energy and loyalty been misplaced?

Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe only the Traditional arts work on the street, because of course MMA is a sport and is subject to rules, and an MMA guy would NEVER think to use a dirty technique if he was attacked on the street. I mean, never mind his tremendous training and toughness, and conditioning and experience in countless matches, he is just INCAPABLE of bringing any of his skills to the fore, once he steps out of the octagon...My God, I'd hate to think my time and effort and energy and loyalty has been misplaced...

And we see someone doing something so similar as to be the same. But there is a little difference in there somewhere. Could it be that I've got it wrong? I mean, holy smokes, I practice ABC kenpo, and THAT GUY practices DEF kempo, only HE spells it with an "M" instead of an "N", but the heads of our lineages studied under the same teacher, albeit during different eras. They are the same, but they are different. My God, could DEF kempo be better than my ABC kenpo? I'd hate to have to admit that my time and energy and effort and loyalty has been misplaced. I think I'll get defensive and critical and pick at what he is doing and tell the world how HE'S got it all wrong...

and the debates repeat themselves over and over, and our foundations are shaken again, and we wonder if our time and energy and effort and loyalty has been misplaced. Maybe I've been fooling myself all along. Maybe I have NO IDEA how to defend myself, and my training has all been a fraud I have perpetuated upon myself. Maybe I've been mislead by a shister trickster named Loki, who wears a disguise called "Sensei" or "Sifu".

Maybe I listen when people point accusing fingers and say "you got it wrong", or "you practice the wrong style", or "your methods are outdated and won't work", or "your methods are just disconnected from reality and don't yield results" and I just smile and nod, and let them blather on. When others are convinced that what I do is worthless, it is best for me. Why would I wish to change their mind? I've already got them in my pocket...

Just thinking out loud kids. Thanks for listening to me vent...

 

[thardey]

To be honest, the ones who worry me are those who never ask those questions.

:asian:

 

[Tames D]

Nice post. Thinking out loud always gets me in trouble

. How do you pull it off?

 

[ciscodog]

My 2 cents. Every style has a weak point, period. Because of my size some techniques work better for me than for others. You learn everything to teach others, but I use what is right for me. Techniques I have used over and over in hours of sparring that i know i can connect with at will. I also realize that since no one style is actually better than the other, that all are not perfect including mine, I accept that, and learn techniques to fill in those holes.

 

[Steel Tiger]

FC I can empathise. I have chosen to study an internal Chinese art and it is complicated and difficult. While I have never thought of giving it away I often look at other arts that have a much simpler structure and curriculum and wonder, "What if..."

The funny thing is that because of the art I have chosen I often find myself looking down on arts that don't take as long to attain a high level of proficiency. These are arts I only know cursorally and have not participated in. I have to reel myself in and say, "Why do you think that?" I have looked into the history of many arts and have found it fascinating and yet, from time to time, there surfaces, unbidden, a strange prejudice. What makes it stranger is that I really have nothing bad to say about other arts. Its just a vaguery of human nature I guess.

 

[newGuy12]

whew!

I am SO glad that I am not plagued with these kinds of thoughts lately. Hey, as thardey said, I agree, if someone is not wondering about such things, they are dozing off, they are not awake.

HOWEVER! For me, now, it is very pleasant. I do not wonder about such things. No. I have accepted that I am not going to be a famous cage fighter. I do not wish to be a very capable street fighter like one might see in the movies. It simply is not going to happen, if for no other reason than I will not pay the price in training in order to get there (it would not happen anyway, I am middle-aged!).

Now, some Martial Artists here on this board may be in a different situation. Maybe they have a job that demands that they be ready to fight all of the time. I am not so situated. I have a "normal" job.

Now, THAT being said, I have come to the conclusion that I can lay way back! THERE ARE BETTER THINGS THAN JUST CHASING FIGHTING SKILLS ONLY! That's right. I have said it. There is so much more now. You can have good friendships and good physical fitness, and so forth, and even if you are not the best fighter in the world, it is still such a great thing that you do not have to feel bad.

I just want to say this, You People, you have helped me so much to get off of the couch away from the computer, and back into life. Here, Here is a picture of me, which a student took tonight after the class. You see me with my Master Instructor, and my VERY GOOD FRIEND who is also an instructor. They have welcomed me back to my old school, THEY ARE MY BROTHERS!

You see, how can I not just keep at this, and not fret too much about only combat. Oh, no. I wish to enjoy the camaraderie of my fellow students and my Instructors. That is more precious than perfect fighting skills. I do not mean to diminish the self-defense. I only mean to accentuate positive things that have nothing to do with self-defense that is ours anyway.

Forgive me for going on, but (in no small part because of You Good People here!!!). Do not miss out on the joy of the "here and now" because of wondering too much about these questions of practicality. The here and now is so very sweet, if we only knew! THESE are the "good old days". We live them now!



Regards,

Robert

 

[Steel Tiger]

whew!

I am SO glad that I am not plagued with these kinds of thoughts lately. Hey, as thardey said, I agree, if someone is not wondering about such things, they are dozing off, they are not awake.

HOWEVER! For me, now, it is very pleasant. I do not wonder about such things. No. I have accepted that I am not going to be a famous cage fighter. I do not wish to be a very capable street fighter like one might see in the movies. It simply is not going to happen, if for no other reason than I will not pay the price in training in order to get there (it would not happen anyway, I am middle-aged!).

I cannot but agree with your sentiments, NG. I am like you, content to be able to do what I do at the level that I do it. There are no ambitions to be a world champion or win an Olympic medal. I am content to explore my art to the fullness of my ability.

When I said I sometimes wonder "What if..." it is more a case of if I had taken up an art with a more rigid structure maybe I'd be like a three or four dan. But then I consider concepts like the uncarved block and wu wei and I am again content. I have made good friends through my art and most of those friendships continue today.

FC posed the question that perhaps we have been duped and that there is another art that is better. Maybe there is but what does it matter? I have made my choice and I think it was the right one. Let others think what they will, I will continue to navigate through the intricacies of the art I come to appreciate more and more as time passes.

 

[jim777]

I don't honestly want or need to become a fearsome fighter; though I could defend myself fairly well right now. I have no disire at all to compete in tournaments either. For me, I study and train and practice because I like the katas (see the sig ), and I like being able to execute the moves. What attracted me to martial arts was the TV series "Kung Fu" way back when, and it was always more of the inner peace and strength than the breaking of boards and stuff. It was the walking on rice paper and not tearing it for me, not the 'beating the guy witht he gun senseless' bit. That said, I love spinning kicks, and at some point my back spinning outer crescent kick will be terrifying to behold, but I won't be aiming at anyone's head I may move over to Tai Chi at some point, but right now I'm enjoying studying TKD with my 4 children.
I used to worry about whether a Shaolin style might be better than the Shotokan all my brothers took, but I don't worry about any of that any more. I am honestly getting more out of my current training than I would have imagined. I can only hope everyone else is as well, upon reflection.

jim

 

[Flying Crane]

I want to clarify my thoughts a little bit, so that nobody takes the wrong message from what I am trying to say.

First off, I am in NO WAY implying that I think I may have been duped by my instructors. I have had the privilege to study under several instructors, each of whom is very accomplished in his or her art, and each of whom occupies a position of high respect within their circles. If my skill is in any way lacking, it is due to my own shortcomings, not those of my instructors. Those comments I was making in the original post were meant to be taken as sarcastic.

What I am trying to say is that I see this repetitious sort of fighting between people of different methodologies, and different training philosopies and sometimes I just gotta step back and sort of ask "why do we keep doing this?" I think a lot of it has to do with our own inner insecurities, when someone challenges our way of doing things, we can't help but wonder if maybe we are wrong and they are right.

But I think if we just keep our heads, look inside ourselves, consider those who are acting as our guides, and we know that we are on a good path. It doesn't matter that others have a very different path. That in no way affects the quality of our own, even if theirs is also of the highest quality. The fact that two very different methods can both be of the highest quality is not mutually exclusive. They can both live very well, side by side. It's not a "win-lose" situation, there is no "BEST" way to which all others take second fiddle.

I find it frustrating to see the oft-repeated battle between TMA and MMA methods. I think they both can produce very very skilled and effective martial artists, both of whom can defend themselves. MMA guys have a better time in competition because they train for that. TMA guys often don't give a rat's butt about competition, so it doesn't matter. TMA guys can develop extremely effective self defense skills, but MMA guys can as well. The fact that they train primarily for competition does not preclude them from having effective self defense skills. So I just don't see the point in continuing an argument over this. It's an argument that can't be won.

I find it frustrating to see the oft-repeated battle over the value of KATA. For some, kata is a very valuable training tool. Others don't like it and don't do it. They can both be very skilled and effective martial artists. It's another battle that isn't winable, because there is no single "correct" answer.

I find it frustrating to see people degrade other styles, especially when the styles are very similar. Sometimes they are arguing over tiny minutae that is meaningless. If I take the technique "The Monk Shows Those Bloody Foreigners A Thing Or Two", and in our school we finish the technique with a swordhand to the side of the neck, but a cousin school finishes the very same technique with a hammerfist to the side of the head, WHAT DOES IT MATTER? There is nothing to fight over, but I see these kinds of arguments.

I guess my message is: there are many ways that are good ways, and they cannot be objectively ranked in any way.

And my final comment is, if someone else thinks my way is worthless, I let him think that, because if I ever need to fight him, he will be surprised. Let him be over-confident. That works in my favor. So I don't want to expend the energy to argue the point. I won't convince him, and it works to my advantage. Once upon a time, the arts were held very close and were not openly shared and discussed. Your very survival may depend on your enemy NOT knowing what your know. It's kind of a funny thing, that so many martial artists of today are willing to give away all their secrets for the world to see. But the world has changed, and in many ways it's no longer so dangerous as it once was.

 

[Bigshadow]

Have we....?
Is ...?
Must you...?
Is a boxer...?
Is Kung Fu...?

And we don't want to think our time and energy and effort and loyalty has been misplaced.

I guess you covered them all! :lfao:

Hey, as thardey said, I agree, if someone is not wondering about such things, they are dozing off, they are not awake.

Funny you said that... On Tuesday my fortune cookie said... "One who is not sleeping, does not mean they are awake."


I think there are alot of sales people out there that are passionate about the art they train in, myself included.

 

[JBrainard]

My two cents.
While it has been said many times that people bash other arts/methods because they are insecure or just plain cocky, I think it is also a product of simply being uninformed about martial arts in general.
No offense to anyone here who fits this profile: If a person joined the very first martial arts school they checked out, no wonder they would have doubts! They don't really know what's out there. And they don't really know if the art/school they chose is the best one for them.
I, myself, honestly don't have doubts about the school I chose, and it's not because I'm cocky. It's because I spent about 4 or 5 years researching martial arts and trying everything from olympic fencing to Shaolin kung fu. In that time frame I could have earned a black belt in some systems!
Eventually I found the art and instructor that really spoke to me, and I knew that my quest was over.
In short: If you were an "informed consumer" when you chose your art, you are indeed taking the right one for you. There is no reason to doubt your decision.

 

[CuongNhuka]

The novice looks for differnices, the master for similarities - Something my Sensei told me once.

 

[Sukerkin]

Another good sentiment there, Cuong :tup:.

I also just wanted to say how much I agree with FC in his above two posts (I would rep you for them my friend but the Gnomes have their "No!" sign out ).

I've dipped my paddle in the waters of the 'kata kwestion' a few times here, largely because the discourses have remained intelligent and reasoned. Now, it's become clear, as we've suspected all along, that no matter how eloquently you state your position, on-line debate is no solvent for an ossified off-line opinion.

There can be an argument for staying in the discussion because otherwise only the stiff-necked and uninformed opinions will remain if the reasonable and experienced decline to get involved but, in the end, the squeek of the endlessly turning hamster-wheel of 'Tis and 'Tisn't turns even the most reasonable from the 'mellow' way.

So, I concur, utterly ... {whispers}did I dress that up enough for it not to count against me as a "Me too!" post :lol:.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Why? ...is there so many confusions in the martial art world?
Of what is better or best martial arts to learn? ..or which art is more effective?

Why? ...because each art has it's great points....at the same time maybe NOT quite perfect?

What is the best Martial art to study? .......if you have a hundred styles? ...you will get a hundred answers....

Humans comes in all kinds of shapes and sizes (brains too).....one style may works for one,at the same time, many not work you....age can be a factor too!

It is NOT the art you study ..... it is the person who makes the Martial art works!

If you take those who have being training for a long time....most of them will be sucessful in defending themselves on the streets.
(NO matter which martial art you choose).

At the same time....the way you learn..will effect the way you defend yourself....some arts take longer than others to master!

Running away....one can learn this in 2 minutes....may take a while to master (1-5 miles or more of non-stopping)

Each art have there own training methods....some will work better than others......

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom line? ....If your art...will save your life on the real mean streets of fighting......than this is good! IT is not the style...it is the person first!

Aloha and the thoughts of one who is still learning....