omg! a 4 year in training 3rd dan came in yesterday...

[miguksaram]

I have asked this many times, and so again I will ask. Why does anyone feel the need to base the "value" of their rank by what other have or have not achieved? My first dan test in Shorei-ryu was 100 times harder than my 1st dan test in TKD and it took me 3 years longer to reach. Do I feel my 1st dan in TKD has no value? No. I gave everything I had when I took both tests and I feel I earned what I received.

When I took my Shorei-ryu test it was not has hard as the test that was given to others who have tested before me. So is my belt of no value? Again, no. I gave it my all and earned it. So again why is that people suddenly feel devalued by what others achieve? Perhaps it is a self esteem issue lingering around. Perhaps a self examination was done and a realization that maybe they too may not deserve what they achieved. I don't know. All I know is quit stressing out about it. If they are not training with you or your school then it really is not your problem to deal with.

 

[dancingalone]

I have asked this many times, and so again I will ask. Why does anyone feel the need to base the "value" of their rank by what other have or have not achieved?

I guess you haven't been reading? I'm affected as a potential studio owner when people scoff at TKD due to various things like 1 year dans or 18 year old third dans or BBs who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

Like I said, it's very PC and Zen and such to ignore it and say it's not a problem and that we should internally look for why we feel this way... but I hardly think it's looking at matters pragmatically. Effective business contingency planning means one must consider the problem and have a solution at hand to redress it sufficiently, at least in your own immediate sphere of influence.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That's because neither judo nor boxing has super-duper fanciful techniques that are more for display than actual usage. Some of the criticism about TKD is merited, though certainly again it's an issue of individual schools running amuck

I find that the biggest criticisms of taekwondo by students of other arts all revolve around issues arising from commercialism. Black belts who can't do the fanciful kicks, or even decent meat and potatoes kicks, eight year old black belts, etc.

Kyokushin has fanciful kicks and a sparring style that prohibits punches to the head, but somehow, you don't see volumes of threads and magazine articles about kyokushin not teaching you to guard your head. Any criticisms of Kyuokushin's body of techniques and sparring rules is usually followed by comments along the lines of 'but you gotta respect the training.'

Hard training garners respect, no ifs, ands or buts, and is entirely unrelated to the content of the art. Boxers and judoka train hard because competition is part and parcel of their arts. Taekwondo, in my opinion, suffers from a bit of an identity crisis at the dojang level, though in large part, this is due to commercialism.

It's not losing students I have already that worries me. I do wonder however if some potential martial artists never even consider TKD to begin with because of its reputation as a kiddie sport. Maybe these people never even set into a dojang to try it out. They might be going straight to other arts.

Honestly, serious students of the martial arts generally already have their idea of what they're after and there aren't enough between-school-serious-students of the martial arts in the marketplace to impact a school one way or another. Serious students are more often developed in house than lured in from outside. As for the general public, they have no perception of taekwondo; as far as they are concerned, its white pajamas with belts and in their minds, karate.

I related the anecdote as an example of how I have had to defend TKD in the past. Whether the bashing should have happened is another matter.

Once again, the bashing says more about the person doing it than it does about the art. I could, as an outsider ask you about things relating to aikido, and ask about the criticisms of aikido without bashing aikido.

I don't entirely know. It would definitely need to be a key part of my business plan otherwise I'd be setting myself up for failure from the onset.

Yup. The cute kiddies are not going away.

Well, yes, and I do, but that doesn't get at the point of what we are discussing, i.e., the actions of some reflecting poorly on the rest of us.

Every art suffers from some reflecting poorly on others. But with TKD schools on every corner, the bad eggs are far more noticable.

I'm not so sure about that. A huge part of the problem is that all those factions use the name 'taekwondo' causing exactly the same problems of identity/goal confusion I describe above. You once said the sport side should call their stuff something like 'tae do'. Have you changed your mind about that?

I still see the sport as being different from the rest of the KKW curriculum, though I will say that Glenn has given me a differnent perspective on the sport/art topic.

Regardless, a name change is not going to happen, so regardless of my feelings on the subject, KKW schools need to be able to address the art and sport in a meaningful way.

I think that leadership, confidence, discipline, and fitness should be byproducts of training and perhaps should be a more prominent part of kids programs.

Where I see a problem with the leadership/fitness aspects is not that they are there, but that their presence is used to justify a lower level of ability in technique or the inability of students to use their skills in any meaningful way.

As far as the sport goes, integrate it as a part of the class so that all students get some exposure to it, but make it only one training tool, with some other form of free sparring (whatever you are using now) as another. In addition offer a class one night a week that is dedicated to competition training entirely and a class one night a week that is entirely devoted to pumse. That way, those who are interested in competition can gravitate to the former and those who want to focus more on pumse can gravitate to latter, and those who are interested in both can of course do both.

Different rooms, one house.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I guess you haven't been reading? I'm affected as a potential studio owner when people scoff at TKD due to various things like 1 year dans or 18 year old third dans or BBs who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

Like I said, it's very PC and Zen and such to ignore it and say it's not a problem and that we should internally look for why we feel this way... but I hardly think it's looking at matters pragmatically. Effective business contingency planning means one must consider the problem and have a solution at hand to redress it sufficiently, at least in your own immediate sphere of influence.

I guess the average consumer is just smarter in your neck of the woods than in my area. I have yet to run across a first time participant and hear them say "This isn't Taekwondo is it? Because I hear it is just a belt factory." They don't know the difference.

The only people who generally scoff at it are those who have been in martial arts and go by what they hear or read, without real experience with it, or those who have been exposed to one school which happen to suck and then went on to a different art. Most people who have bad experience tend to stick with the same art but look for a better school before saying the art itself sucks. At least that is what I have found.

 

[dancingalone]

I find that the biggest criticisms of taekwondo by students of other arts all revolve around issues arising from commercialism. Black belts who can't do the fanciful kicks, or even decent meat and potatoes kicks, eight year old black belts, etc.

Yep.

Kyokushin has fanciful kicks and a sparring style that prohibits punches to the head, but somehow, you don't see volumes of threads and magazine articles about kyokushin not teaching you to guard your head. Any criticisms of Kyuokushin's body of techniques and sparring rules is usually followed by comments along the lines of 'but you gotta respect the training.'

I am not aware that kyokushin trains 360 kicks, etc. It's true enough that spinning back kicks, hook kicks, and axe kicks are.

Hard training garners respect, no ifs, ands or buts, and is entirely unrelated to the content of the art. Boxers and judoka train hard because competition is part and parcel of their arts. Taekwondo, in my opinion, suffers from a bit of an identity crisis at the dojang level, though in large part, this is due to commercialism.

High intensity sparring/randori, not competition. Many boxers and judoka never enter a single tournament.

Honestly, serious students of the martial arts generally already have their idea of what they're after and there aren't enough between-school-serious-students of the martial arts in the marketplace to impact a school one way or another. Serious students are more often developed in house than lured in from outside. As for the general public, they have no perception of taekwondo; as far as they are concerned, its white pajamas with belts and in their minds, karate.

Maybe the people in my area are more knowledgeable as miguksaram said, although I think he meant it sarcastically. I definitely get occasional inquiries from people with prior knowledge of TKD or at least a preconceived notion of what TKD is. Much of the time, they're very concerned with avoiding a soft training experience.

I think that leadership, confidence, discipline, and fitness should be byproducts of training and perhaps should be a more prominent part of kids programs.

I can definitely agree with the first part of your sentence. I'm conflicted on the second part. I played a lot of sports when I was a kid and I think I learned many life lessons along the way. That said, playing (and umm, winning) was the principle goal in those sports. It was never #1 on teaching manners, respect, confidences, etc.

Where I see a problem with the leadership/fitness aspects is not that they are there, but that their presence is used to justify a lower level of ability in technique or the inability of students to use their skills in any meaningful way.

Not to mention this is a real sideline. How many martial artists have child development degrees? Seems like we should focus principally on martial arts which presumably we are experts in?

As far as the sport goes, integrate it as a part of the class so that all students get some exposure to it, but make it only one training tool, with some other form of free sparring (whatever you are using now) as another. In addition offer a class one night a week that is dedicated to competition training entirely and a class one night a week that is entirely devoted to pumse. That way, those who are interested in competition can gravitate to the former and those who want to focus more on pumse can gravitate to latter, and those who are interested in both can of course do both.

A lot of people do that. Who knows, maybe I will too. Kids love to point fight.

 

[miguksaram]

I think that leadership, confidence, discipline, and fitness should be byproducts of training and perhaps should be a more prominent part of kids programs.


Daniel

One of the things I tell parents is that we do not TEACH self discipline or confidence at the school, but the students LEARN them through their hard training. The one thing we do teach is leadership skills. While students can learn this through their training, we do teach do's and don'ts when instructing a class or a individual student.

I agree that all the hype of teaching discipline, respect, confidence, self-esteem, concentration has always been a by-product learning martial arts not the core objective.

 

[puunui]

I do not like having to defend taekwondo as a valid martial art to other martial artists or to lay people who form their impressions of TKD from the McDojo fare. It's all very pure and Zen to say we should just ignore the detractors, but I fear such a perspective is not rooted in day-to-day concerns.

I don't like having to defend Taekwondo either from people who come in asking why we don't call the instructors "Sensei" like at their old Taekwondo school on the mainland, or why no one but them wears a red white and blue cross over uniform instead of a v neck, or why their stance is too wide, or why they cannot punch to the face, or why it isn't pronounced Tie Kwon Do, or a million other whys that pop up. But that's just the way it is. As an instructor your job is to educate, and that is part of the educating process, to clear up misconceptions that people might have.

For better or worse, Taekwondo as a commercial venture has carved out a very nice niche for itself -- children. Parents will eat vienna sausage and tuna sandwiches in order to give their children a better life, and they are also willing to pay Taekwondo instructors big bucks to help "raise" their kids.

The sacrifice seems to be that you give up the type of student that you are looking for or the type of training that you want to give. it is a decision most every commercial school owner has faced and dealt with.

Some new instructors had very strong feelings about contracts and so when they first opened, they made a big point out of saying they did not have contracts, only to find out that students tended to stay for shorter periods of time because of that. Other instructor want to emphasize a heavy self defense curriculum, with heavy contact, only to find that a lot of students quit because of that. Some want to emphasize Olympic style sparring only to learn that one or more students quit after every tournament that they participate in. Others discover that if they water down the curriculum, cut the classes to 45 minutes, create a black belt club, that they can make more money than they ever dreamed of. Do you hold fast your platitudes and starve, or sell out and make tons of money? Is there some middle ground where you don't feel like a sell out and yet maintain quality and a comfortable living? That's for you to find out.

To me, all of that is part of the 4th Dan learning curve. You open a new school and you get to put all your own ideas into play. Some work, others won't. But through that process you develop your own style with your style. After that, you move on to other lessons on the journey.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am not aware that kyokushin trains 360 kicks, etc. It's true enough that spinning back kicks, hook kicks, and axe kicks are.

I was thinking of spinning kicks and high kicks as well as the 360 kicks, though now I am curious as to whether they train in those as well.

High intensity sparring/randori, not competition. Many boxers and judoka never enter a single tournament.

No, they may not enter a tournament, but competition is a part of the art. A judo sensei is not going to alter the class just because I don't think I'll enter a competition. I either participate in the randori or find another place to train.

Maybe the people in my area are more knowledgeable as miguksaram said, although I think he meant it sarcastically. I definitely get occasional inquiries from people with prior knowledge of TKD or at least a preconceived notion of what TKD is. Much of the time, they're very concerned with avoiding a soft training experience.

Good! Sounds like your area is more likely to support a school that offers the kind of classes that you want to teach.

I can definitely agree with the first part of your sentence. I'm conflicted on the second part. I played a lot of sports when I was a kid and I think I learned many life lessons along the way. That said, playing (and umm, winning) was the principle goal in those sports. It was never #1 on teaching manners, respect, confidences, etc.

Maybe it should be. Might be nice if athletes learned early on that you've got to behave with courtesy, respect and integrity before they're handed a $10,000,000 contract. Pretty much everyone is sick and tired of grown men acting like drunken frat boys or spoiled primadonnas.

Not to mention this is a real sideline. How many martial artists have child development degrees? Seems like we should focus principally on martial arts which presumably we are experts in?

If your studio is running a daycare center (which is what after school programs and summer camps really are), then there should be the same qualified and licensed staff on hand as one would find in a daycare center.

If you're just teaching a kids class, I don't think a child development degree is needed. The whole leadership thing is more or less just a question of encouraging kids to take initiative and to behave in a mature way that will encourage others to follow their example.

A lot of people do that. Who knows, maybe I will too. Kids love to point fight.

Sounds like that is you best option; it would enable you to maintain a more intense adult class while keeping the kids involved and interested but not challenged beyond what they're ready for.

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I dont know whether its child black belts, the 2 year black belts, olympic sparring etc but no one can deny that in the last 15 years tkd has started to cop a battering as far as its reputation is concerned. Its validity as a viable martial art is questioned almost everywhere. When I went to school we had a couple of tkd black belts and they were feared and respected. These days I hear kids telling me that they dont tell anyone at school they do tkd because they get teased and people say "why dont you go and hang with your 6 year old mates and play with your black belts". We could go on discussing this for another 3 weeks, but the bottom line is that the '2 year black belt' has harmed tkd's image. Irrespective of whether tkd values a black belt differently, does it for marketing reasons or whatever the reason, the general public are 'sus' on anyone getting blackbelts in 2 years, they just dont get it. It may be a short term solution to get people to join up, so their little johnny gets his black belt (despite the fact the school bully will beat him up with both arms tied behind his back), but on the larger scale it is damaging the image of the art. Tkd when taught properly is a very effective fighting system and is a great art, but it doesnt take einstein to figure out you cant get good in 2 years. I would like to line up 100 "2 year black belts" and ask them all to do a spinning hook kick. I will guarantee that at least 90 of them would stumble through it or at best do a very average kick. In my opinion how can a tkd black belt not do a fast, crisp accurate spin hook kick? And thats just one kick. I doubt these 2 year black belts can do form with any purpose or 'understand' the form on any decent level. I will just never accept or understand the 2 year black belt, buts thats probably because I have a different view to what a black belt is.

 

[puunui]

I guess you haven't been reading? I'm affected as a potential studio owner when people scoff at TKD due to various things like 1 year dans or 18 year old third dans or BBs who can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

The people who scoff at that sort of thing aren't the ones who will be coming to your school inquiring about lessons. The ones who scoff are those who are already taking some sort of martial art. As for the one year black belt, I think that commercial schools have an interest in prolonging the black belt process as a way to gain more income from each student. I find that the Taekwondo schools with the longest road to 1st Dan/Poom are the big commerical schools. More color belts means more belt test money and more tuition to black belt, when contracts expire and people quit because they reached their goal of becoming a black belt. As for the 18 year old 3rd Dan, he probably started when he was 4 or 5, spends all his free time at the dojang and is an assistant instructor who helps teach classes.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The people who scoff at that sort of thing aren't the ones who will be coming to your school inquiring about lessons. The ones who scoff are those who are already taking some sort of martial art. As for the one year black belt, I think that commercial schools have an interest in prolonging the black belt process as a way to gain more income from each student. I find that the Taekwondo schools with the longest road to 1st Dan/Poom are the big commerical schools. More color belts means more belt test money and more tuition to black belt, when contracts expire and people quit because they reached their goal of becoming a black belt. As for the 18 year old 3rd Dan, he probably started when he was 4 or 5, spends all his free time at the dojang and is an assistant instructor who helps teach classes.

Big commercial schools are longer to black belt because they dont grade as regularly, there are still 10 or 11 belts before black so obviously if it takes longer to get black they just make the student stay at each coloured belt longer, thus earning less from grading fees. Your theory would only work if commercial schools had 20 belts before black because obviously if they are trying to make more money from gradings why wouldnt they just let students grade more regularly and get more grading fees? Its the one year black belt schools who make the grading money quickly because they are pumping out 10 lots of grading fees in only 12 months.

 

[leadleg]

Number 1, what 2 year bb school do you know of? I could see a two year bb that put in 1000 hrs a year, but rarely do I see that kind of dedication.
As for testing fee's as a money generator I would say not so much compared with tuition.A lot of schools who charge over 100 dollars a month throw in the testing fee's. Contracts are something I do not do but lots of people ask for them, they want a discount on the tuition.
I see alot of people who do not want junior bb's, and some think teaching children is wrong, but almost every ffounder or pioneer has a story of them training at very young ages.
While I agree that young people do not have the maturity to encompas the phylosophy or the ability to act like adults, like this 18 year old,if they can do the requirements how do you hold them back? We do it with poom belts.
I have seen my fair share of adult bb's who did not have the maturity or technique of some of the 12 year old poom holders.
It is no secret that you can make money and produce excellent students, but you are going to have to market and treat your school as a buisness. Why does this mean you need to keep people you do not want to teach or not teach the way you want?
You may have to have some classes that cater to different types of students, but you can still have your favourite class,even if it only has 6 students.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Number 1, what 2 year bb school do you know of? I could see a two year bb that put in 1000 hrs a year, but rarely do I see that kind of dedication.
As for testing fee's as a money generator I would say not so much compared with tuition.A lot of schools who charge over 100 dollars a month throw in the testing fee's. Contracts are something I do not do but lots of people ask for them, they want a discount on the tuition.
I see alot of people who do not want junior bb's, and some think teaching children is wrong, but almost every ffounder or pioneer has a story of them training at very young ages.
While I agree that young people do not have the maturity to encompas the phylosophy or the ability to act like adults, like this 18 year old,if they can do the requirements how do you hold them back? We do it with poom belts.
I have seen my fair share of adult bb's who did not have the maturity or technique of some of the 12 year old poom holders.
It is no secret that you can make money and produce excellent students, but you are going to have to market and treat your school as a buisness. Why does this mean you need to keep people you do not want to teach or not teach the way you want?
You may have to have some classes that cater to different types of students, but you can still have your favourite class,even if it only has 6 students.

Do some schools charge $100 or more a month? Thats outrageous. What's the average at most places?

 

[mango.man]

Do some schools charge $100 or more a month?

Yes

What's the average at most places?

I don't know. I have paid anywhere from $59/month to $150/Month for my daughter's training. And that is just monthly tuition. Belt tests, equipment fees, coaching fees, competition costs, gas for the 60 mile commute to practice and 60 miles home etc. well that was all extra out of pocket costs.

Over the past 12+ years I, and many others I am sure, have paid for a decent college education with TKD costs. I added it up once a few years ago and I had spent well over $40,000. Since then, I have probably spent another $15,000.

Do I wish I had saved that money for college instead of "wasting it on TKD"? Well, since she graduated from high school last year, I suppose part of me does. But then I remember that I paid for my own college education, so she can to. In the mean time she learned many life skills, leadership, discipline, responsibility, pride, honor, respect etc. At the same time, she got to travel all over the USA and visit Russia making all sort of friends and experiencing so many things that I had to join the military to do.

She has never been hugely successful on the competitive circuit. Always did great on a local and state level, OK at a regional level but less than stellar on the national scene. She has had fun though, learned alot, met lots of great people and seen lots of great things and had many great experiences that hopefully she will look back on and be grateful for.

If she does, than the roughly $55,000 will be worth it.

 

[Archtkd]

Do some schools charge $100 or more a month? Thats outrageous. What's the average at most places?

What's outrageous, that $100 is too high or too low?

 

[dancingalone]

$90-$125 seems to be the median range in my area for a commercial dojang. The most expensive TKD dojang I know of charges $160 a month for their Masters Club. The cheapest one is ... free.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What's outrageous, that $100 is too high or too low?

Sorry, I should have clarified. Too high, Ive never hard of anywhere charging that much.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

$90-$125 seems to be the median range in my area for a commercial dojang. The most expensive TKD dojang I know of charges $160 a month for their Masters Club. The cheapest one is ... free.

Most I know of charge $50 a month, that includes uniform and you only have to pay for 3 family member after that any additional family members are free. My wife, my daughter and I all train and pay $50 a month each, when my son starts he will be free, so 4 of us can train for $150 a month. Geez it would be an expensive hobby it the whole family did it and each paid $100 or more per month.

 

[puunui]

I guess the average consumer is just smarter in your neck of the woods than in my area. I have yet to run across a first time participant and hear them say "This isn't Taekwondo is it? Because I hear it is just a belt factory." They don't know the difference.

If the "belt factory" criticism was a concern, then the millions of parents over the years would not go near a Taekwondo school. Instead they keep coming.

 

[puunui]

As for testing fee's as a money generator I would say not so much compared with tuition.A lot of schools who charge over 100 dollars a month throw in the testing fee's.

Let's run some numbers. For the sake of comparison, let's use the same amounts for tuition ($100/month) and color belt tests ($30/test).

First the Korean model of one year 1st poom: Korea has white, yellow, green, blue, red and black, which translates into testing every two months before 1st poom, 4 months between red and poom. 12 months tuition ($1200) plus four color belt tests ($120) equals $1320 to 1st poom:

American Model: USA has generally more color belts: Let's take an average belt system, white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, high blue, brown, high brown, red, high red, bodan, black. That's eleven belts, with belt tests every three months, every six months starting after red belt. That's 45 months of tuition ($4500) plus eleven color belt tests ($330) equals $4830 to 1st poom.

This does not include school membership fees, discounts for cash outs, uniform, sparring equipment sales (even if the school does not participate in tournaments), membership fees for black belt club or demo team, etc. Also fees for 1st poom/dan are not included, and if the instructor does not issue Kukkiwon certification, then they can pocket the entire testing fee.

So again, there is incentive to stretch out the process from white to 1st poom. The main money maker is the tuition, not the belt testing money. The longer the stretch to 1st poom/dan, the more money an instructor can make.

Some basic assumptions that many school operate under: The goal of black belt is stressed ("We are a black belt school"), and the majority of students quit after reaching the goal of black belt and our primary goal is the financial success of the school. I am sure people have issues with some or all of this, but at the same time, I am sure the experienced school owners can see how many dojang owners function under these circumstances. This, basically, is how you end up with a Bentley.