Olympic Dream is it real or just plain insanity!

[ralphmcpherson]

I actually watch a horse racing event once. It was when I was young and I had this video game that was a horse racing game. But that was about it. The game was more fun as you controlled the whipping of the horse. To soon and he tired and got passed by. To late and you could not catch the front runners soon enough. So you had to know things like how many furlong in the race and if the horse ran better in mud, dirt, or grass. The game was pretty fun. The real event was not. I think the people that bring you horse racing made the game and put it out to attempt to stir up interest in the sport. I guess it worked because it made me watch an event. But the event itself just could not hold me.

Now if I had some money on a horse then I guess I would watch.

The game even had the betting aspect to it. You could bet on your horse but your horse only (guess it would be pretty easy to cheat and bet against yourself and then lose on purpose). There were 3 bets you could make. A win bet, a place bet, and a trifecta bet where you would bet on three horses and you had to pick the order of the horses. So 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

As I said the game was fun. Me and my friends use to play all the time. And this was 30 years ago. But the real thing I guess, is for the Aristocratic.

thats the difference. Id sit down and enjoy a game of footy without money on one of the teams but despite what some may say there would be very few watching horse racing just for the spectacle. You only have to go to the pub and go to where they are showing the horse racing and you will see all the people betting on the races with all the used tickets littering the floor. You wont see anyone sitting back with a beer and just cheering on their favourite horse, unless they have a few dollars on it.

 

[Gorilla]

Wow!!!!!

 

[Tez3]

The thing about some blokes is that they always want to be right and they will come up with any old waffle trying to make it sound as if what they are saying makes sense. As the sayng goes- BS baffles brains. As my mum use to say it's better to humour them so as not to upset their egos, so my reply to the above posts is 'yes dear of course it is'.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

The thing about some blokes is that they always want to be right and they will come up with any old waffle trying to make it sound as if what they are saying makes sense. As the sayng goes- BS baffles brains. As my mum use to say it's better to humour them so as not to upset their egos, so my reply to the above posts is 'yes dear of course it is'.

My mother always told me not to argue with idiots because they will drag you down to their level and win on experience. I think I know what she was talking about.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Back to topic. Im curious to hear from those who have kids who compete at a high level in TKD competitions, what percenatge of success do you believe is just raw natural ability and what percentage is hard work? Obviously hard work alone is not enough nor is natural ability so what is more important and by how much?

 

[ATC]

Back to topic. Im curious to hear from those who have kids who compete at a high level in TKD competitions, what percenatge of success do you believe is just raw natural ability and what percentage is hard work? Obviously hard work alone is not enough nor is natural ability so what is more important and by how much?

Well my kid is still young and has a ways to go so he is not by any means high level yet, but I think he is pretty good. I can tell you that he is not the fastest nor is he the strongest. But he does put in the work. He never cheats a drill nor does he ever take any short cuts. If he is to do 500 push ups he does 500 correct push ups. When all others are done with their 500 butt up and shoulder dip ups, there he is still plugging away (201...202...2.0.3...rest...rest...204...etc...). You get my drift.

When he first started competing he use to just stand there and never even tried. I just talked to a former Black Belt of our that opened his own school at a past tournament and he came over and asked, "Is that the same AJ that we use to pull our hair out from trying to make him kick?"). I told him, "Yep". He was amazed at the difference.

Hard work will always pay off if you stick to it. You can overcome a lot with hard work. Hard work is like putting you paycheck in the bank. Before you know it those checks turn into ability.

I tell all the kids that I (help) train. "You don't win in the ring. You win during training." Simple saying but has a lot behind it.

To answer your question I would say 80% work vs. 20% ability.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Well my kid is still young and has a ways to go so he is not by any means high level yet, but I think he is pretty good. I can tell you that he is not the fastest nor is he the strongest. But he does put in the work. He never cheats a drill nor does he ever take any short cuts. If he is to do 500 push ups he does 500 correct push ups. When all others are done with their 500 butt up and shoulder dip ups, there he is still plugging away (201...202...2.0.3...rest...rest...204...etc...). You get my drift.

When he first started competing he use to just stand there and never even tried. I just talked to a former Black Belt of our that opened his own school at a past tournament and he came over and asked, "Is that the same AJ that we use to pull our hair out from trying to make him kick?"). I told him, "Yep". He was amazed at the difference.

Hard work will always pay off if you stick to it. You can overcome a lot with hard work. Hard work is like putting you paycheck in the bank. Before you know it those checks turn into ability.

I tell all the kids that I (help) train. "You don't win in the ring. You win during training." Simple saying but has a lot behind it.

To answer your question I would say 80% work vs. 20% ability.

Thats good to hear. With hard work being the major contributor it means all kids have a good chance of some form of success if they are willing to put in the real hard work.

 

[terryl965]

Natural ability is only as good as the work you put into your training, timing is thekey to the next level and that alone takes alot of footwork drills and spring to get down. If I had to guess it would be around 85% training and 15% ability. One last thing is the mental game, people always seem to overlook hopw mentally you need to be to get to that level.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Natural ability is only as good as the work you put into your training, timing is thekey to the next level and that alone takes alot of footwork drills and spring to get down. If I had to guess it would be around 85% training and 15% ability. One last thing is the mental game, people always seem to overlook hopw mentally you need to be to get to that level.

Thanks for the info, its great to get feedbak from guys like ATC nd yourself who have a lot of experience in this field (as I dont when it comes to olympic sparring). I was wondering also, do you see a correlation between good sparrers and other aspects of tkd? For instance, do you notice that young kids who, as coloured belts, excel in form, timber breaking, self defence etc become the ones who spar well or do you find that sparring is a different thing altogether? My istructor has always said that they all work together but Im curious as to whether you guys have a similar opinion.

 

[terryl965]

Thanks for the info, its great to get feedbak from guys like ATC nd yourself who have a lot of experience in this field (as I dont when it comes to olympic sparring). I was wondering also, do you see a correlation between good sparrers and other aspects of tkd? For instance, do you notice that young kids who, as coloured belts, excel in form, timber breaking, self defence etc become the ones who spar well or do you find that sparring is a different thing altogether? My istructor has always said that they all work together but Im curious as to whether you guys have a similar opinion.

I have found that doing Olympic is a great way of producing good footwork for self defense, it also allows you the ability to know the distance it takes to keep yourself out of the danger zone. One draw back is the hands down, that is and will remain a problem area for alot of Olympic TKD. We are a little more focus on the hands since we do point sparing and continous point sparing where the hands need to be up.

About Poomsae (forms) we still compete in poomsae and get beat alot because I stick to the KKW way on poomsae and do not allow the cieling kicks for flash. I believe sport poomsae is not what should be tought because it takes away from the intregrity of said poomsae. Take Koryo for example in sport it is to the ankle and then the cieling but in reality it is knee and lower rib cage so we do it that way even if we get deducted points for style and grace. Ihave always found it funny that poomsae should be judged on style and grace, power and percession should be the only criteria.

 

[Archtkd]

About Poomsae (forms) we still compete in poomsae and get beat alot because I stick to the KKW way on poomsae and do not allow the cieling kicks for flash. I believe sport poomsae is not what should be tought because it takes away from the intregrity of said poomsae. Take Koryo for example in sport it is to the ankle and then the cieling but in reality it is knee and lower rib cage so we do it that way even if we get deducted points for style and grace. Ihave always found it funny that poomsae should be judged on style and grace, power and percession should be the only criteria.

With much respect and hope I'm not throwing the thread off the rails, I don't think this is completely accurate. People who kick to the ceiling actually lose points in WTF competition. The correct double side kicks in Koryo, in competition and current Kukkiwon standard, is kick to knee, kick to the chin (no higher). The kicks are supposed to be propoportional to a competitor's body.

Also, I don't see how you can perform perfect, precise, and powerful kicks without good style and grace.

There are numerous poomsae gurus on MT, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I. Please weigh in and kindly correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[jks9199]

Attention all users:

Please remain on the original topic, and refrain from name calling and personal attacks.

jks9199
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[terryl965]

With much respect and hope I'm not throwing the thread off the rails, I don't think this is completely accurate. People who kick to the ceiling actually lose points in WTF competition. The correct double side kicks in Koryo, in competition and current Kukkiwon standard, is kick to knee, kick to the chin (no higher). The kicks are supposed to be propoportional to a competitor's body.

Also, I don't see how you can perform perfect, precise, and powerful kicks without good style and grace.

There are numerous poomsae gurus on MT, who are a lot more knowledgeable than I. Please weigh in and kindly correct me if I'm wrong.

I will just add the reference for everybody Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do Textbook O Sung Publlishing Company Author Kim Un-yong Register : No. 13-27 March 2 1973.

Page 388 chapter 6 Poomsae

Action 2-1, 2-2Double yop-chagis are applied against the opponet (2-2)

* First kick is delivered against the opponent's knee and, while the latter stagers, another yop-chargi is inflicted a little higher on the opponet. The first kick may be superficial to entire the opponent's attention to an arae-makki while the second is a substantial one.

The picture show to the knee and the solarplexes, nothing is to the head or cieling.
I am not starting a war but rather trying to inform.

 

[ATC]

I will just add the reference for everybody Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do Textbook O Sung Publlishing Company Author Kim Un-yong Register : No. 13-27 March 2 1973.

Page 388 chapter 6 Poomsae

Action 2-1, 2-2Double yop-chagis are applied against the opponet (2-2)

* First kick is delivered against the opponent's knee and, while the latter stagers, another yop-chargi is inflicted a little higher on the opponet. The first kick may be superficial to entire the opponent's attention to an arae-makki while the second is a substantial one.

The picture show to the knee and the solarplexes, nothing is to the head or cieling.
I am not starting a war but rather trying to inform.

Yes this is correct for both the KKW way and the wTF sport way. You will find that WTF has taken what KKW has documented and now used that standard as its format. KKW and WTF are trying to standardize. Let's hope it does so.

Sport poomsae is much more detailed than regular poomsae and they have attempted to take out the subjectiveness. From the stances to the transitions to the techniques to the accuracy. You must perform everything as it is laid out. They are looking at every detail.

No more just make up a score based on who you think did better. Look at the form and if you see a mistake hit a button. That is it, the computer will total the score based on the number of times you hit the button. Make a major mistake (Kick above or below the knee and or chin for example) and push a second button that take a full half point away.

Watch sport poomsae at Worlds or Nationals and you will see large gaps between competitors even though you may no see large gaps over all by just watching. Sport poomsae to me is a good thing and will conform everyone to the book standard. I really like it.

Just my .02

 

[Archtkd]

I will just add the reference for everybody Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do Textbook O Sung Publlishing Company Author Kim Un-yong Register : No. 13-27 March 2 1973.

Page 388 chapter 6 Poomsae

Sir. I'm curious? Was the text book published in 1973? If so how many pooms does this book show in Taeguk Yook Jang, 19 or 23? Does it show there's a jump in the transition side kick in Jitae?

The most current official Kukkiwon DVDs and accompanying text book (widely used by refs) shows a kick to the knee and a kick to the chin in the opening sequence of Koryo.

 

[terryl965]

Sir. I'm curious? Was the text book published in 1973? If so how many pooms does this book show in Taeguk Yook Jang, 19 or 23? Does it show there's a jump in the transition side kick in Jitae?

The most current official Kukkiwon DVDs and accompanying text book (widely used by refs) shows a kick to the knee and a kick to the chin in the opening sequence of Koryo.

The book is at my school so I will check after classes in the a.m., as far as I know the kicks have never changed. When I did the instructor course it was tought the same way and that is the opponet turning with the chest open and the kick is going right into the solarplex, so if they are sideway it would be the floating rib cage. I did call a very well known G.M. here in Texas and he confrims what I am saying and he does not understand the under the chin either. I am not here to argue but I go by the what the book says and until the instructor course changes it, it will remain that way for me. I know I have a ref. that is high up at my school and here is on here as well, goes by the name TX_BB and he says the same thing to me. Like I tell him when and if they make the correction or make it mandatory across the board then I am staying with what I know.

To be correct here one would have to remember the KKW and the WTF standerds are trying to get in line with each other. I will look that up for you in the a.m.

As far as yook jang it shows 19 and Jitae shows no jump before any sidekick. I went to the KKW website and looked at the video so they are the same and will check in the book in the a.m.

 

[Gorilla]

Back to topic. Im curious to hear from those who have kids who compete at a high level in TKD competitions, what percenatge of success do you believe is just raw natural ability and what percentage is hard work? Obviously hard work alone is not enough nor is natural ability so what is more important and by how much?

That is a tough ? With out hard work natural talent is wasted!!!

 

[taekwondodo]

The book is at my school so I will check after classes in the a.m., as far as I know the kicks have never changed. When I did the instructor course it was tought the same way and that is the opponet turning with the chest open and the kick is going right into the solarplex, so if they are sideway it would be the floating rib cage. I did call a very well known G.M. here in Texas and he confrims what I am saying and he does not understand the under the chin either. I am not here to argue but I go by the what the book says and until the instructor course changes it, it will remain that way for me. I know I have a ref. that is high up at my school and here is on here as well, goes by the name TX_BB and he says the same thing to me. Like I tell him when and if they make the correction or make it mandatory across the board then I am staying with what I know.

To be correct here one would have to remember the KKW and the WTF standerds are trying to get in line with each other. I will look that up for you in the a.m.

As far as yook jang it shows 19 and Jitae shows no jump before any sidekick. I went to the KKW website and looked at the video so they are the same and will check in the book in the a.m.

At the Kukkiwon Poomsae seminars either at Dallas 08 or at US open 09 or ANY seminar that was taught by one of the Masters from Kukkiwon head quarter, the same questions were asked.
"I was taught..." "I learned..." " Why and when was the change.."

The same answers replied: "Taekwondo poomsaes evolves. What works before doesn't work now. Poomsaes derived from NATURAL movements"

That said, each of the technique has a function, and over the year each instructor water down the techniques based on their own interpretation and teaches to the students.

Sport Poomsae forced all of us to practice as one set Poomsae, or basically, follow the standards/base line thru out the world.

Referee guidelines for ANY kicks (side, front, or round kicks). The target is YOUR OWN level.

1. to the face (no point deducted) OR
2. To the body/trunk and the target is at the solar plexes (.1 deduction)
3. Round kick is delivered from the BALL of the foot. NOT the top/instep of the foot. This has been changed as of this year. (-.1 deduction if it was shown differently.)
4. Any kicks delivered ABOVE the head is .1 deduction. There is no target above your head.

Jitae or any other form that has side kick in it.

There isn't any jumping transition from one move to another to deliver a side kick. (.1 deduction) The transition is a fast stepping down and bring another leg up. I asked an Master Hsui (Poomsae IR) specifically after 2010 US Open, when a French lady performed that jump, and he said no, it is a deduction.

Kukkiwon and WTF forms are ALMOST the same but with minor differences. Sport Poomsae athletes needs to know what are the differences are and correct it. All others just will do ok with Kukkiwon teaching.

BTW: I am a 2nd level Poomsae Referee. and we follow WTF. Master Hsui said there will be a WTF poomsae guide line book coming out. First draft were full of errors and it is being corrected. I don't know when it will be published so we just have to wait.

My suggestion is for you any coaches/instructors who want to have their students participate in Sport Poomsae divisions, ALL needs to Audit/take the REFEREE Poomsae seminar. Then you will learn from the Referee point of view.

Sport Poomsae will be really big from now on. The divisions will have more competitors and it will be very competitive. The athletes will learned, refined, honed their techniques down. The errors will be minimals, which will be all good.

 

[terryl965]

If the poomsae evolve than they need to make it in a journal for everybody because if the KKW official website still has it the way I explained it. Like I said I will continue to do it the way the KKW does, we do not compete in sport poomsae anyway just because it is not what It should be. I do not mean any dis-respect to anybody but sport poomsae is not the same as KKW or at least what I have seen over the last year or two. Now if they do publish something with the standerd in it and confirm it, then I may start doing sport poomsae that way it is down in writing or on video what they really want instead of saying to refs. this needs to be this way and then you go out in one ref. makes the deduction while the others do not. I would really like to see every single ref. on the same page but I do not see that happening anytime soon, maybe one day it will come.

 

[terryl965]

One last thing I find funny is when you said you will see from the referee point of view, well that is the main problem the referee's do not see things the same way all the time so how is that going to help. Look we need refs. and I appreciate everything they do but for the sake of life all refs are not created equal and never will be. I have my oldest son Zachary ref all the time at state, local and at National and believe me what they say between every tournament is never the same thing how can that be? I will end this with when they create a book or a DVD that is truely available to everyone than I will be first in line to get it and make changes.