Olympic Boxing Controversy

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Gyakuto said:
What do you make of the Cabrini/Khelif controversy at the Olympics yesterday?

www.theguardian.com

Angela Carini abandons Olympic fight after 46 seconds against Imane Khelif

Algerian Imane Khelif moved past Angela Carini when the Italian abandoned their 66kg fight after 46 seconds in the first round on Thursday
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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On the decision to abandon the fight: if Carini felt unsafe for whatever reason or did not want to fight, she did the right thing stepping down, as nobody should be on a boxing ring if they don't feel like taking the risk.

On whether Khelif is not a woman: those who make such accusations better show proof or keep their mouths shut. And whatever is publicly available contradicts them. I feel quite sorry for the humiliation she's going through.

On the technical side: I wonder whether Khelif really had that much of an "unfair power advantage". I don't believe that she's the first woman to hit that hard at that weight. I also wonder how much harder the average male boxer can hit compared to a female in the same weight class. Khelif has been competing for a while and her win % is similar to Carini's, including defeats against women (all of whom, in hindsight, must have been men too I guess?).

There was a lot of political and media pressure in the days before the match around the issue of Khelif's gender, as admitted by Carini and her coach. My hunch is that Carini was strongly influenced by that whole mess, as shown by the fact that, before she threw in the towel for good after 46 seconds, she had already tried to give up earlier in the match and her coach had to convince her to try and finish the first round. It didn't help that, regardless of the alleged power difference, she had trouble landing punches on Khelif. The fact Carini announced her retirement from boxing after the controversy was also surprising.

On the surrounding controversy: many political figures, here in Italy but also abroad, have taken advantage of that incident to push their anti-trans views and did not hesitate to spread lies. I won't go into a political discussion here but I'm appalled, if unsurprised, by the cynicism, bigotry and lack of values displayed by those individuals. In Drogba's words, we need to look outside of the ring to find the true "f****** disgrace".
 
O'Malley said:
On the decision to abandon the fight: if Carini felt unsafe for whatever reason or did not want to fight, she did the right thing stepping down, as nobody should be on a boxing ring if they don't feel like taking the risk.

On whether Khelif is not a woman: those who make such accusations better show proof or keep their mouths shut. And whatever is publicly available contradicts them. I feel quite sorry for the humiliation she's going through.

On the technical side: I wonder whether Khelif really had that much of an "unfair power advantage". I don't believe that she's the first woman to hit that hard at that weight. I also wonder how much harder the average male boxer can hit compared to a female in the same weight class. Khelif has been competing for a while and her win % is similar to Carini's, including defeats against women (all of whom, in hindsight, must have been men too I guess?).

There was a lot of political and media pressure in the days before the match around the issue of Khelif's gender, as admitted by Carini and her coach. My hunch is that Carini was strongly influenced by that whole mess, as shown by the fact that, before she threw in the towel for good after 46 seconds, she had already tried to give up earlier in the match and her coach had to convince her to try and finish the first round. It didn't help that, regardless of the alleged power difference, she had trouble landing punches on Khelif. The fact Carini announced her retirement from boxing after the controversy was also surprising.

On the surrounding controversy: many political figures, here in Italy but also abroad, have taken advantage of that incident to push their anti-trans views and did not hesitate to spread lies. I won't go into a political discussion here but I'm appalled, if unsurprised, by the cynicism, bigotry and lack of values displayed by those individuals. In Drogba's words, we need to look outside of the ring to find the true "f****** disgrace".
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:rolleyes::oops:
 
Well, does Swyer syndrome change you physically and does it give you an unfair advantage? Does it change your muscle structure? Obviously dna shows anomalies. If sports is about fairness in competition, is it fair or is it ideological? Considering the opening ceremonies, I would lean toward the latter. Also, I’m I wrong or are the raised trophy podiums missing?
 
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Holmejr said:
Well, does Swyer syndrome change you physically and does it give you an unfair advantage? Does it change your muscle structure? Obviously dna shows anomalies.
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Before discussing this, the first thing to do would be to confirm whether she has Swyer's.
 
That would be true. Someone mentioned in this post that she had that condition. But you’re right.
 
Isn’t it interesting that in this case the IOC behave in opposition to the rules of boxing’s governing body?

I’d highly recommend Olympian, Sharron Davis’s bestselling book ‘Unfair Play: The Battle For Women's Sport’. It lays the issue out very clearly, backed up with scientific data and sporting achievement. What surprised me is the data showing just how far behind elite biologically female athletes are to elite biologically male athletes and thus what an advantage testosterone bestows. Katie Ledecky, the outstanding ‘living legend’ swimmer with 19 world titles to her name would not make it onto a US Junior team! Her Tokyo Olympic winning time over 800 metres would place her 14th in the European junior boys heats of the same year while her historic and amazing 2016 world record would place her 6th among the junior boys and at world level she would not even make the boys final! Arsenal’s international cup winning women’s football team were beaten 5-0 by the Arsenal under 15s team. There’s page after page of stats like this which was astonishing and evidence that there is no overlap between women’s and men’s performance and the need to have separate categories due to the lingering advantages of ‘testosteronisation’ during puberty.
 
I am of the opinion that in the USA, this has become a political discussion and on that basis it should not be discussed here. If it's permitted, I have a few comments, and a few of you are not going to like them. Fair warning.
 
I nearly boycotted watching the Olympics this year because of the atrocious way the IOC treats biological women in sport and how it mangles the rules of various sports (Olympic Judo and Olympic TKD) making them ridiculous.
 
Bill Mattocks said:
I am of the opinion that in the USA, this has become a political discussion and on that basis it should not be discussed here. If it's permitted, I have a few comments, and a few of you are not going to like them. Fair warning.
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My opinion is that it’s not political as in ‘party political’.
 
Gyakuto said:
Isn’t it interesting that in this case the IOC behave in opposition to the rules of boxing’s governing body?
Click to expand...

As far as the Olympics are concerned, the IOC has been boxing's governing body for years: in 2019, it suspended the recognition of the IBA following long-standing governance issues (it definitely revoked it in 2023). Both the Tokyo2020 and Paris2024 qualifications were organized by the IOC.


Gyakuto said:
I’d highly recommend Olympian, Sharron Davis’s bestselling book ‘Unfair Play: The Battle For Women's Sport’. It lays the issue out very clearly, backed up with scientific data and sporting achievement. What surprised me is the data showing just how far behind elite biologically female athletes are to elite biologically male athletes and thus what an advantage testosterone bestows. Katie Ledecky, the outstanding ‘living legend’ swimmer with 19 world titles to her name would not make it onto a US Junior team! Her Tokyo Olympic winning time over 800 metres would place her 14th in the European junior boys heats of the same year while her historic and amazing 2016 world record would place her 6th among the junior boys and at world level she would not even make the boys final! Arsenal’s international cup winning women’s football team were beaten 5-0 by the Arsenal under 15s team. There’s page after page of stats like this which was astonishing and evidence that there is no overlap between women’s and men’s performance and the need to have separate categories due to the lingering advantages of ‘testosteronisation’ during puberty.
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That's interesting, and not that surprising when you think of it. And it would help justify the exclusion of trans athletes that have undergone male puberty. I wonder whether that would apply to Khelif, though.

By the way, it's interesting to read the link that Xue shared on Swyer's syndrome:

Chromosomes contain the genetic instructions for how the body develops and functions. People usually have 46 chromosomes in each cell. Two of the 46 chromosomes, known as X and Y, are called sex chromosomes because they help determine whether a person will develop male or female reproductive structures. Girls and women typically have two X chromosomes (46,XX karyotype), while boys and men typically have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome (46,XY karyotype). In Swyer syndrome, individuals have one X chromosome and one Y chromosome in each cell, which is the pattern typically found in boys and men; however, they have female reproductive structures.

People with Swyer syndrome have female external genitalia and some female internal reproductive structures. These individuals usually have a uterus and fallopian tubes, but their gonads (ovaries or testes) are not functional. Instead, the gonads are small and underdeveloped and contain little gonadal tissue. These structures are called streak gonads. The streak gonadal tissue is at risk of developing cancer that is often hard-to-detect, so it is usually removed surgically. Swyer syndrome is also called 46,XY complete gonadal dysgenesis; the medical term “dysgenesis” means "abnormal development."

Because they appear female on the outside, babies with Swyer syndrome are usually raised as girls and develop a female gender identity, which is a person's sense of their gender (girl, boy, a combination, or neither). Swyer syndrome may be identified before birth, at birth, or later when a child does not go through puberty as usual. Because they do not have functional ovaries that produce hormones, affected individuals often begin hormone replacement therapy during early adolescence to start puberty, causing the breasts and uterus to grow, and eventually leading to menstruation. Hormone replacement therapy is also important for bone health and helps reduce the risk of low bone density (osteopenia) and fragile bones (osteoporosis). Women with Swyer syndrome do not produce eggs (ova), but if they have a uterus, they may be able to become pregnant with a donated egg or embryo.
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If I remember my highschool biology classes correctly, testosterone is produced by male gonads - testicles - and it says here that people with Swyer's have non-functional female gonads. So that would be incompatible with high levels of testosterone, unless one purposefully takes testosterone replacement therapy. According to the same passage, women with Swyer's often take hormones, but female ones, in order to go through puberty.
 
Gyakuto said:
I nearly boycotted watching the Olympics this year because of the atrocious way the IOC treats biological women in sport and how it mangles the rules of various sports (Olympic Judo and Olympic TKD) making them ridiculous.
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I think it's not the IOC but the IJF that makes the rules for judo. Like banning the double leg takedown (morote gari) in 2010 or the reverse seoi nage (which I liked as an aikidoka) in 2022.
 
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