Is Karate a sport?

[Kong Soo Do]

Kong so do, also makes the the mistaken assumption that Funakoshi altered karate to meet some kind of Japanese "standard" what ever that means.

Rather arrogant presumption on your part. I've already stated some of the requirements i.e. standardized uniform, ranking structure and curriculum. It is not mistaken assumption, it is simply historical fact.

Yes he did alter the way he taught to groups of hundreds from the way he was taught one on one. But the reality was that it was the Japanese military machine that took karate and nationalized it and stripped it from it's okinawan heritage into a soldier making propaganda vehicle.

It was the government as a whole and not just the military.

It was not of any Okinawans doing.

Funakoshi was the one credited with introduction to mainland Japan.

However if anyone read the link I posted about the meeting in Okinawa on the name karate. It is clear that the Okinawans called their art "chinese hand" or just Te or tode but due to the Japanese pressure they agreed to the change to empty hand as well as concessions in the names of kata and the like.

Another of the standards I mentioned. You're helping to prove my point. Thank you.

Karate is not Japanese it's okinawan

No one said it was.

The service men you refer to were stationed in Okinawa not Japan.

Both. We've had U.S. servicemen and women stationed in Japan since the 1950's. It's part of the USFJ which is in the Pacific command.

The first authentic karate was brought to Massachusetts by George Mattson, uechi ryu karate.

Which wasn't called Uechi Ryu karate until the 1950's. Before that Uechi Kanbun Sensei identified it as Pangainoon (or depending upon who you talk to, a variation on that theme).

 

[hoshin1600]

There were many Okinawans in Japan teaching and yes Funakoshi gets the credit because it was he who was invited to the capital to teach. But he was teaching in japan in1922 it wasn't until 1939 that he went to Tokyo. This is not proof that it was Funakoshi that watered down karate as you say.

 

[Tez3]

Karate was brought to the UK ( and as far as I know to Europe as well) by Japanese martial artists not returning service personnel. We didn't have any stationed in Japan.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

There were many Okinawans in Japan teaching and yes Funakoshi gets the credit because it was he who was invited to the capital to teach. But he was teaching in japan in1922 it wasn't until 1939 that he went to Tokyo. This is not proof that it was Funakoshi that watered down karate as you say.

And when precisely did I say Funakoshi watered down karate? I stated he modified karate at the 'request' of the Japanese government as previously stated, which cannot be denied and which you have confirmed.

 

[hoshin1600]

Fast forward to WW2 and the sudden influx of allied troops (and liberated Koreans). Suddenly, once Imperialistic karate masters have to teach these allied troops (the invaders by their perspective) in order to make a living. What are they going to teach, the adult end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time or children's karate? By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended. It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.

i thinki can see where our disconnect lies.
1...your post implies karate,,meaning all karate. i think you mean only Japanese main land, Itosu karate thus, Funakoshi, meaning Shotokan. it was only Shotokan that was branded as the nationalistic form of karate. it was only taught that way between 1939 and the end of the war. it was only taught in that format to Japanese school children and Japanese military and was banned by the American occupation agreement.
2... you are implying that American GI learnt karate and brought it back to the united states.
there are by my memory 10 or more recognized Okinawan ryu. non of which made any changes to their system due to main land Japanese pressure. it was here that a few American GI learnt karate and were given authorization from the style organization and/or head of the ryu to teach back in the States. shotokan karate was brought to the world Via Japanese who had learned from Funakoshi dating back to 1922.
if by chance there were service men who came to the US and taught watered down karate they were frauds and charlatans piggy backing on the populartity of karate.. i can name names but forum policy wont allow it and it is not polite since a few of these systems are well recognized and are now established.
there were only a small handfull of authentic American black belts who were recognized by the ryu governing body authorized to teach.

you are taking facts and mish mashing them to create a narrative that is not factual.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No, you are putting words in my mouth which I did not say to forward your opinion. And it is an opinion that I disagree with.

there are by my memory 10 or more recognized Okinawan ryu. non of which made any changes to their system due to main land Japanese pressure.

Really? So Shotokan is the only one that uses the Dan/Kyu system? Shotokan is the only one with a standardized uniform?

But in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter, nor does it forward the conversation on the OP. And that is the question, 'is karate a sport'. The answer, and it is definitive, karate did not start out as a sport. There are two methodologies in teaching karate and the sport version lends itself to one methodology but not the other.

 

[Chris Parker]

Not at all. Do you think that karate is intended to be used by waiting until someone starts throwing punches at you?

“When faced with someone who disrupts the peace or who will do one harm, one is as a warrior in battle, and so it only stands to reason that one should seize the initiative and pre-empt the enemy’s use of violence. Such action in no way goes against the precept of ‘no first attack’ …the expression ‘karate ni sente nashi’ [no first attack in karate] should be properly understood to mean that the karateka must never take a hostile attitude, or be the cause of a violent incident; he or she should always have the virtues of calmness, prudence and humility in dealing with others.” – Kenwa Mabuni

“There is a saying ‘no first attack in karate’ …To be sure, it is not the budo [martial art] spirit to train for the purpose of striking others without good reason. I assume that you already understand that in karate one's primary goal must be the training of mind and body… But when a situation can't be avoided and the enemy is intent on doing you serious harm, you must fight ferociously. When one does fight, taking control of the enemy is vital, and one must take that control with the very first move. Therefore, in a fight one must attack first. It is very important to remember this.” – Choki Motobu

"When there are no avenues of escape or one is caught even before any attempt to escape can be made, then for the first time the use of self-defense techniques should be considered. Even at times like these, do not show any intention of attacking, but first let the attacker become careless. At that time attack him concentrating one's whole strength in one blow to a vital point and in the moment of surprise, escape and seek shelter and help." – Gichin Funakoshi

Psst… Paul… Paul (pgsmith) was agreeing with you, and saying that drop bear was being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative… he was using your quote to show his agreement in your statement, not disagreeing with it…

 

[Chris Parker]

Karate was a sport invented in the 1800's, and the name caught on, and came to represent all the various kempos.

Yeah… I'm going to second the "huh?" response here…

Firstly, can you explain how karate was a "sport" invented in the 1800's (both the "sport" aspect, and the "invented in the 1800's" aspect… I'd pay "developed into the modern form largely in the 1800's", but that's a different thing in a number of ways), and secondly, can you define what you mean when you say "all the various kempos" there? Mainly as most systems that use the term, or have identified themselves as "kempo" considerably post-date the 1800's themselves… and could be seen as being a term used to differentiate themselves from the popular "karate" systems of the time.

 

[JR 137]

Is karate a sport? Yes. And no.

Is driving a car a sport? Chopping down trees? Shooting animals? Riding on animals? Running as fast as you can and/or for a long distance? Jumping? Swimming? I can keep going here.

If/when you're competing and preparing to compete, it's a sport. When you're not, it's not a sport.

Karate is whatever you want it to be, whenever you want it to be it. Sport, fitness activity, social activity, fighting system, way of life, or whatever else you want. And/or whatever aspect(s) of it you're focusing on at the moment.

As with any other thing that was turned into a sport, people wanted to see who was the best at certain aspects of it. They made a set of rules they agreed on in an attempt to best simulate the nature of the "activity" (for a lack of a better word) and reduce serious injury to an acceptable level.

Same as the original Olympic events.

 

[pgsmith]

Not at all. Do you think that karate is intended to be used by waiting until someone starts throwing punches at you?

Psst… Paul… Paul (pgsmith) was agreeing with you, and saying that drop bear was being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative… he was using your quote to show his agreement in your statement, not disagreeing with it…

What Chris said.

 

[PhotonGuy]

You know 'karate' is a generic term covering a lot of things, so which karate is a sport? Would you say those styles that train for fighting and self defence are sports, or are those ones that compete full contact sport or only those that do points sparring. What about those that never compete are they sports? Saying karate is a sport is like saying cars are racing cars, clearly some are but most certainly aren't.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as

1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.

2. Sports in general.

3. A physical activity (such as hunting, fishing, running, swimming, etc.) that is done for enjoyment.

So in particular according to the third definition all styles and all forms of karate are a sport as well as all the other styles of martial arts. You could say all martial arts are sports although from my own experience I would say they are so much more.

 

[Tez3]

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as

1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.

2. Sports in general.

3. A physical activity (such as hunting, fishing, running, swimming, etc.) that is done for enjoyment.

So in particular according to the third definition all styles and all forms of karate are a sport as well as all the other styles of martial arts. You could say all martial arts are sports although from my own experience I would say they are so much more.

Well, good for the Merriam-Webster. You forgot these definitions though.


› [ C ] old-fashioned informal a pleasant, positive, generous person who does not complain about things they are asked to do or about games that they lose:

Oh, Douglas - be a (good) sport and give me a lift to the station.
See also
spoilsport
[ C ] Australian English a friendly way of talking to a man or boy:

[ as form of address ] Hello sport - how are you?



I find the definition of something by the person who does it to be a more reliable to guide to what that person does.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yesterday I have posted on my Wado-ryu Karate Blog an article about the inclusion of Karate in the Olympics. The World Karate Federation websites, in its news center, onepnly referred to Karate as a "sport". Nothing’s wrong with the Olympics, to me, but, to I have some problems with the word sport when, generally speaking, they use it to define a martial art and, specifically, to mean Karate as WKF website did. What do you think about?

PS: If you want to read my article, you are welcome here: The true Olympics of Karate

In my opinion, when it is used in competition, it is a sport. That doesn't make it not a martial art, but fairly defines the training and competition involved. I often refer to "martial sports" to differentiate them from those MA being taught for defensive purposes. The same art can be used for both.

 

[Steve]

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines sport as

1. A contest or game in which people do certain physical activities according to a specific set of rules and compete against each other.

2. Sports in general.

3. A physical activity (such as hunting, fishing, running, swimming, etc.) that is done for enjoyment.

So in particular according to the third definition all styles and all forms of karate are a sport as well as all the other styles of martial arts. You could say all martial arts are sports although from my own experience I would say they are so much more.

Well, good for the Merriam-Webster. You forgot these definitions though.


› [ C ] old-fashioned informal a pleasant, positive, generous person who does not complain about things they are asked to do or about games that they lose:

Oh, Douglas - be a (good) sport and give me a lift to the station.
See also
spoilsport
[ C ] Australian English a friendly way of talking to a man or boy:

[ as form of address ] Hello sport - how are you?



I find the definition of something by the person who does it to be a more reliable to guide to what that person does.

I don't understand what just happened. Tez3, are you saying that definitions don't matter? Jesus Christ... don't tell Chris Parker. He'll totally lose his ****.

 

[Tez3]

If it's a sport someone had better tell those who spar like it's not....................

 

[pgsmith]

I think people get entirely too caught up in "defining" things. If someone else sees karate as a sport, why in the world would that offend someone who feels that they don't approach it that way? As an example, when people where I work find out I practice martial arts, I often get a pseudo karate stance and a couple of "judo chops" done with the sickly kiai from an old Hai Karate aftershave commercial. There is no reason for me to get offended as they don't know or understand just what it is I do, so I just smile and go on.

So, when someone calls karate a sport, just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ...

 

[Tez3]

I think people get entirely too caught up in "defining" things. If someone else sees karate as a sport, why in the world would that offend someone who feels that they don't approach it that way? As an example, when people where I work find out I practice martial arts, I often get a pseudo karate stance and a couple of "judo chops" done with the sickly kiai from an old Hai Karate aftershave commercial. There is no reason for me to get offended as they don't know or understand just what it is I do, so I just smile and go on.

So, when someone calls karate a sport, just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ...

I don't think anyone is upset as such, when non martial do as you say it's easy to shrug however when it's martial artists who fervently believe in the myths told to them by instructors I suppose the need to correct people about what you do comes out. Often too people say 'sport' in a derisory fashion, meaning you do something less worthy because it's a sport. It's probably akin to when people say 'oh she's just a mother' or 'she's just a housewife' when discussing what work a woman does. 'Karate' oh it's just a sport.'

 

[drop bear]

Psst… Paul… Paul (pgsmith) was agreeing with you, and saying that drop bear was being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative… he was using your quote to show his agreement in your statement, not disagreeing with it…

I call it making a subtle point. Which gets lost on people who don't understand nuance.

 

[drop bear]

I think people get entirely too caught up in "defining" things. If someone else sees karate as a sport, why in the world would that offend someone who feels that they don't approach it that way? As an example, when people where I work find out I practice martial arts, I often get a pseudo karate stance and a couple of "judo chops" done with the sickly kiai from an old Hai Karate aftershave commercial. There is no reason for me to get offended as they don't know or understand just what it is I do, so I just smile and go on.

So, when someone calls karate a sport, just smile and wave boys, smile and wave ...

Yeah that. Your karate does not define my karate.

 

[Paul_D]

What Chris said.

My bad