Is Karate a sport?

[Steve]

I think your history is a little fuzzy. Can you explain how the word karate is a sport word?

To the OP,
Original okinawan tode is not sport, was not designed to be sport and was not taught that way. It was only after WW11 ,during the American occupation that sport was introduced.

WW11??? That hit my funny bone. I think 2 world wars was plenty. I sincerely hope we don't have a third... much less an eleventh!

And just to throw in my two cents, my impression is that some styles are sport, and others are not. Some schools emphasize sport and others do not. Karate is one of those words that means different things to different people, and so it's a tough question to answer.

 

[hoshin1600]

WW11??? That hit my funny bone. I think 2 world wars was plenty. I sincerely hope we don't have a third... much less an eleventh!

And just to throw in my two cents, my impression is that some styles are sport, and others are not. Some schools emphasize sport and others do not. Karate is one of those words that means different things to different people, and so it's a tough question to answer.

Oooppps I think I let my time travel capabilities out of the bag. But yes your correct WW2

 

[Touch Of Death]

I think your history is a little fuzzy. Can you explain how the word karate is a sport word?

To the OP,
Original okinawan tode is not sport, was not designed to be sport and was not taught that way. It was only after WW11 ,during the American occupation that sport was introduced.

I don't believe that we had to teach the Japanese how to sport up their fighting systems. I think you mean it became much more popular, after WWII.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't believe that we had to teach the Japanese how to sport up their fighting systems. I think you mean it became much more popular, after WWII.

Agreed. I would suggest that it was Funakoshi circa 1924 that began to 'change' the karate he had learned in Okinawa to better fit Japanese needs of the time. Certainly he is responsible for the Dan/Kyu system in karate, uniforms, standardized curriculum and I would say a more sport element.

As I've discussed in the past, Itosu was a college professor. He developed the Pinan katas that clearly have two different bunkai teaching methodologies. Furthermore, he was responsible for getting karate into the school curriculum of Okinawa. But that version of karate was 'simplified' to a more block/punch/kick format by necessity as school children don't need to know the more 'nasty' aspects of karate.

Fast forward to WW2 and the sudden influx of allied troops (and liberated Koreans). Suddenly, once Imperialistic karate masters have to teach these allied troops (the invaders by their perspective) in order to make a living. What are they going to teach, the adult end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time or children's karate? By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended. It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.

Older traditional karate clearly has chokes, ground fighting, joint locks (destruction), cavity pressing, sealing the breath, misplacing the bone and other elements obtained by heavy Chinese influence. These elements can't be morphed into sport as they are outside of a rule set and have more permanent results. Whereas block/punch/kick fits in perfectly with competition as it can be scored.

 

[hoshin1600]

I don't believe that we had to teach the Japanese how to sport up their fighting systems. I think you mean it became much more popular, after WWII.

Agreed. I would suggest that it was Funakoshi circa 1924 that began to 'change' the karate he had learned in Okinawa to better fit Japanese needs of the time. Certainly he is responsible for the Dan/Kyu system in karate, uniforms, standardized curriculum and I would say a more sport element.

As I've discussed in the past, Itosu was a college professor. He developed the Pinan katas that clearly have two different bunkai teaching methodologies. Furthermore, he was responsible for getting karate into the school curriculum of Okinawa. But that version of karate was 'simplified' to a more block/punch/kick format by necessity as school children don't need to know the more 'nasty' aspects of karate.

Fast forward to WW2 and the sudden influx of allied troops (and liberated Koreans). Suddenly, once Imperialistic karate masters have to teach these allied troops (the invaders by their perspective) in order to make a living. What are they going to teach, the adult end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time or children's karate? By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended. It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.

Older traditional karate clearly has chokes, ground fighting, joint locks (destruction), cavity pressing, sealing the breath, misplacing the bone and other elements obtained by heavy Chinese influence. These elements can't be morphed into sport as they are outside of a rule set and have more permanent results. Whereas block/punch/kick fits in perfectly with competition as it can be scored.

oh good lord,,
i dont have the time and energy to argue this. you two have been around these forums long enough to know better.
The Meeting of Okinawan Karate Masters in 1936
JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban
History of the Ryukyu Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What are they going to teach, the adult end-the-fight-right-now-by-doing-the-most-damage-as-possible-in-the-shortest-amount-of-time or children's karate? By and large it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended. It was this form of karate that was morphed into sport.

and this is just flat out wrong. i have it on good authority from both the Okinawan masters and American students who trained under the Okinawan masters who are now masters themselves that this is just wrong and not true.

 

[Touch Of Death]

oh good lord,,
i dont have the time and energy to argue this. you two have been around these forums long enough to know better.
The Meeting of Okinawan Karate Masters in 1936
JCS: Documentation Regarding the Budo Ban
History of the Ryukyu Islands - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Okinawan martial arts - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



and this is just flat out wrong. i have it on good authority from both the Okinawan masters and American students who trained under the Okinawan masters who are now masters themselves that this is just wrong and not true.

I heard it was. I think it is a, depends on who ya talk to, thing.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

oh good lord,,
i dont have the time and energy to argue this.

Seems like you are arguing it. And I stand by what I've said.

i have it on good authority from both the Okinawan masters and American students who trained under the Okinawan masters who are now masters themselves that this is just wrong and not true.

And I have it on good authority from Masters I've trained with (of several ethnic backgrounds and training in Okiwnwa) that it is true. Funakoshi did have to modify what he had learned to adapt to Japanese 'standards'. There are two methodologies to the Pinan kata bunkai just as there are differing methodologies for many kata bunkai. Some see the opening movement of Pinan Shodan as a block against a punch whilst others see it as a shoulder lock and/or takedown.

We've talked about this on this forum (and Martial Warrior) for nearly a decade and a half i.e block/punch/kick vs. deeper meaning techniques.

Peace.

 

[Paul_D]

and this is just flat out wrong.

From what I understand, from people who know more about this than me, when Itosu introduced Karate into the school syllabus he knew it there were certain techniques, such as joint locks or strikes to the neck/throat carotid sinus (Shuto Uke/Age Uke), that were too dangerous for children to be practising on each other and so he disguised them as blocks.

He also started teaching kata without teaching children the brutal applications the kata where there to record.
It was this children's version of karate that became popular and spread.

 

[drop bear]

What i dont get is. What were karate people using to stop punches before they realised that they could use those joint lock thingies to do it?

 

[Paul_D]

What i dont get is. What were karate people using to stop punches before they realised that they could use those joint lock thingies to do it?

Joint locks aren't being used to stop incoming punches.

 

[drop bear]

Joint locks aren't being used to stop incoming punches.

Tough times to be a karate guy then

 

[Paul_D]

Tough times to be a karate guy then

Only if you are stupid enough to stand there and wait until someone starts throwing punches at you before you take action.

 

[pgsmith]

Only if you are stupid enough to stand there and wait until someone starts throwing punches at you before you take action.

Or if you're being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative.

 

[Paul_D]

Or if you're being deliberately obtuse in order to be argumentative.

Not at all. Do you think that karate is intended to be used by waiting until someone starts throwing punches at you?

“When faced with someone who disrupts the peace or who will do one harm, one is as a warrior in battle, and so it only stands to reason that one should seize the initiative and pre-empt the enemy’s use of violence. Such action in no way goes against the precept of ‘no first attack’ …the expression ‘karate ni sente nashi’ [no first attack in karate] should be properly understood to mean that the karateka must never take a hostile attitude, or be the cause of a violent incident; he or she should always have the virtues of calmness, prudence and humility in dealing with others.” – Kenwa Mabuni

“There is a saying ‘no first attack in karate’ …To be sure, it is not the budo [martial art] spirit to train for the purpose of striking others without good reason. I assume that you already understand that in karate one's primary goal must be the training of mind and body… But when a situation can't be avoided and the enemy is intent on doing you serious harm, you must fight ferociously. When one does fight, taking control of the enemy is vital, and one must take that control with the very first move. Therefore, in a fight one must attack first. It is very important to remember this.” – Choki Motobu

"When there are no avenues of escape or one is caught even before any attempt to escape can be made, then for the first time the use of self-defense techniques should be considered. Even at times like these, do not show any intention of attacking, but first let the attacker become careless. At that time attack him concentrating one's whole strength in one blow to a vital point and in the moment of surprise, escape and seek shelter and help." – Gichin Funakoshi

 

[hoshin1600]

From what I understand, from people who know more about this than me, when Itosu introduced Karate into the school syllabus he knew it there were certain techniques, such as joint locks or strikes to the neck/throat carotid sinus (Shuto Uke/Age Uke), that were too dangerous for children to be practising on each other and so he disguised them as blocks.

this is not what i was disputing. it is well known that the Pinan Kata was developed by taking the traditional kata sequences as found in Kusanku and Jion to make simple non lethal kata to implement into the Okinawan school system.

it was children's karate which the troops took back home after their tour ended.

this is primarily what i oppose.. this is a slap in the face to every person to ever lean martial arts in Okinawa and every teacher who welcomed an American student into their dojo. Okinawan Dojo were part of a persons household. to invite a student in was a big deal. still is. if the teacher had no intention of teaching something of worth and value why invite them in at all. why not just refuse to teach Americans. which many did. but some teachers did not hold this racism and prejudice attitude and welcomed Americans. it is offensive to their memory to say they were not passing on the tradition they spent their lives to learn and were just looking for a buck.
the statement also implies that every person who has learnt karate ever since in Japan, America, korea and else where are not practicing "real" karate. somehow to this day the Okinawans still hold the true karate hidden away in the closet somewhere.
it is an incorrect premise.
in truth American GI may only spend a few short years in Okinawa. long enough to earn a black belt and then come back to the States and open a dojo. this was often the case. they were inexperienced for sure. imagine someone with only three years training being responsible for the introduction and spread of a particular karate system to the Americas and the world at large. yes they made mistakes but over time those errors in understanding were corrected.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

@ hoshin 1600

I agree with you in small part, but disagree in large part. I have a realistic appraisal of the era whereas I feel you have a romantic idea of the era. Was honor a cornerstone of Japanese culture? Sure. So were 'comfort stations' where a woman was raped up to 70 times a day by Japanese men or forced labor camps or inhuman torture. The culture was imperialistic (Japanese) and they were soundly and overwhelmingly defeated by those they genuinely thought inferior. Perhaps some had honor to teach real 'adult' karate but in large they did not. And allied G.I.'s learned block/punch/kick and brought it back to their home countries.

Back to the OP, karate did not start as a sport. And what I refer to as 'adult' karate cannot be made into sport due to it's very nature whereas 'childrens' karate can easily be made into sport.

 

[hoshin1600]

Kong so do, also makes the the mistaken assumption that Funakoshi altered karate to meet some kind of Japanese "standard" what ever that means. Yes he did alter the way he taught to groups of hundreds from the way he was taught one on one. But the reality was that it was the Japanese military machine that took karate and nationalized it and stripped it from it's okinawan heritage into a soldier making propaganda vehicle. It was not of any Okinawans doing. If was the Japanese themselves that watered down karate...and it wasnt all karate styles. However if anyone read the link I posted about the meeting in Okinawa on the name karate. It is clear that the Okinawans called their art "chinese hand" or just Te or tode but due to the Japanese pressure they agreed to the change to empty hand as well as concessions in the names of kata and the like. Luckily we still have the original okinawan styles in their entirety and were not morphed into one single Japanese system ad was the imperial intent.

 

[hoshin1600]

@ hoshin 1600

I agree with you in small part, but disagree in large part. I have a realistic appraisal of the era whereas I feel you have a romantic idea of the era. Was honor a cornerstone of Japanese culture? Sure. So were 'comfort stations' where a woman was raped up to 70 times a day by Japanese men or forced labor camps or inhuman torture. The culture was imperialistic (Japanese) and they were soundly and overwhelmingly defeated by those they genuinely thought inferior. Perhaps some had honor to teach real 'adult' karate but in large they did not. And allied G.I.'s learned block/punch/kick and brought it back to their home countries.

Back to the OP, karate did not start as a sport. And what I refer to as 'adult' karate cannot be made into sport due to it's very nature whereas 'childrens' karate can easily be made into sport.

Karate is not Japanese it's okinawan. So your premise is incorrect from the start. There was no imperial national fever in Okinawa

 

[hoshin1600]

The service men you refer to were stationed in Okinawa not Japan. The first authentic karate was brought to Massachusetts by George Mattson, uechi ryu karate. He was Stationed in okinawa. There was also Chuck Merriman and Anthony marikian both of goju ryu.

 

[hoshin1600]

Tsutomo oshima is the one who brought shotokan to California in 1955 he was neither American nor an American GI....

Where is this realistic appraisal? ????