old school/clasic tkd

[Jaeimseu]

Can you be more specific? Perhaps, as you mention in regards to sport. Though it seems the rules change. But from the perspective of why the martial arts were created, I see modern TKD'ist at a distinct disadvantage vs. those that train old school. Old school had grappling, throws, chokes, locks and a ground component, the same as Karate. I don't see modern TKD adept in these areas unless the instructor happens to toss a few things in here and there.

In regards to strength, actually this is more due to modern chemistry. In the past, considering natural athletes, they were much stronger pound for pound due to old school training methods. Methods which are seeing a resurgance in popularity because of there effectiveness.

I mean in terms of achieving whatever training goals you have in mind. I don't train with a purely self defense mind-set, nor do I believe most people train that way these days. I think people have a variety of motivations for training, be it health, social, sports, or self-defense. I believe that with few exceptions the majority of people will be better served training with modern methods. You obviously feel that the old ways suit you better, and I really have no issue with that. I don't believe newer is better simply because it is newer, but I don't believe older is better because it's older, either.

As far as natural athletes in the past is concerned, I don't think we can accurately say they were or weren't stronger pound for pound, but we can accurately say that they weren't competing against other athletes training with today's methods. These days it's not enough to be a natural athlete. Simply being a natural athlete won't get you to the top.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I don't train with a purely self defense mind-set, nor do I believe most people train that way these days. I think people have a variety of motivations for training, be it health, social, sports, or self-defense.

Yes, I hear this put forth quite a bit. SD seems to be at the bottom of the list, on some people's list. But I can't help but feel that is intentional. After all, SD is straight-foward and hard work. It isn't flashy like sport. It doesn't keep the kids, or fast-food society adults 'entertained'. And it certainly doesn't help the instructor...let's see, how did Al put it...'drive his mercedez to the bank'. And with all the Mcdojangs around touting entertainment disguised as SD, other reasons need to come to the surface for training. Let's be honest, when one thinks of a hard-core method of SD...TKD isn't on most people's list. And there is a valid reason it isn't...because 'modern' TKD doesn't use effective SD training methodoloy.

But it use to have it! That is my point. So perhaps we can compromise on our positions; Old school probably wouldn't do for modern sport training. But modern doesn't hold a candle to old school as far as SD.

As an example;

Most 'modern' TKD practitioners would think this down block is used to block an incoming kick or strike. And that's a shame, because it isn't meant for that at all.

 

[Gemini]

Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon. I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."

All good points, but I think we went in two different directions here. "Improving" techniques and changing focus on training are not the same thing. I see this as addressing strategy, which I agree is ever evolving as circumstance changes, as opposed to technical execution, which as often as not, does not benefit from modernization. That's not to say it can't, but it often does not. Norrowing the training down to focus on only certain aspects of a originally wider curriculum is a losing proposition in my mind, which is what I took from the OP.

 

[miguksaram]

You don't fix what isn't broken. 'New and Improved' is often a marketing scam, generally speaking. Having a quality product, and maintaining a quality product isn't going backwards, it is after all, a quality product. I feel sorry for the newer TKD students of today that never had an exposure to that quality product.

To quote Billy Joel "The good ol' days weren't always so good and tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems". Not quite sure how using modern training methods or "new and improve" as you put it will net me more money, nor do I know of any TKD school that says we are new and improve...better than the old TKD. Horse and buggy have been around for centuries, they worked just fine, yet some darn whipper snapper came up with that noisy automijigy thing.

I like reminiscing about the "good ol' days" just as much as the next person, and I still use methods of training that I was taught when I first started. However, things evolve even in the realm of SD. People who trained in SD decades ago would not be training in the same manner today simply because of new research about the mindset of an attacker, mindset of a victim and other factors have come to light. Sure basics may be the same, but if you are training the same way they did back in the '40's you will most likely have your *** handed to you in the street today.

 

[miguksaram]

Let's be honest, when one thinks of a hard-core method of SD...TKD isn't on most people's list. And there is a valid reason it isn't...because 'modern' TKD doesn't use effective SD training methodoloy.

I am curious as how you came to this conclusion. Can you please explain your reasoning behind it siting examples from your modern TKD training methods and how they conflict with your hardcore SD training methods?

 

[mastercole]

To quote Billy Joel "The good ol' days weren't always so good and tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems". Not quite sure how using modern training methods or "new and improve" as you put it will net me more money, nor do I know of any TKD school that says we are new and improve...better than the old TKD. Horse and buggy have been around for centuries, they worked just fine, yet some darn whipper snapper came up with that noisy automijigy thing.

I like reminiscing about the "good ol' days" just as much as the next person, and I still use methods of training that I was taught when I first started. However, things evolve even in the realm of SD. People who trained in SD decades ago would not be training in the same manner today simply because of new research about the mindset of an attacker, mindset of a victim and other factors have come to light. Sure basics may be the same, but if you are training the same way they did back in the '40's you will most likely have your *** handed to you in the street today.

That's right. I crack up at so-called old school self defense theorist who don't train full contact. One solid punch to the face, the lights go out and all that theory goes out the window.

I like Mike Tyson's quote: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"

 

[Manny]

What I love about Taekwondo, is that it allows so much freedom of expression within the art, you can have your own style within the style and still be recognisable as taekwondoin. If that means you teach and learn in an 'Old School' way, then that's good if it works, the same if you take a more modern approach, or a sports approach. There is no right or wrong path as long as your technique is good and you adhere to the principles.

Manny, as you've been feeling a little bitter about your current class, why not train with your original GM? It sounds like you'd have a great time.

In the past, maybe around 1994-1995 or 1996 I retunre to Jido Kwan Central and trained a couple of weeks before leaving it again, in 2007 I found Hwarang Taekwondo and since then I am part of this dojang.

Returning again to JDK is a good question, I make myself this question in the past, however I think it will be disloyal leaving my actual dojang/sambonim to returno with the former one, I think I will break my actual sambonim's heart, don't know if you get me, it will be not the same returning JDK, it's dificult to express feelings in a foreing languaje like english.

manny

 

[Jaeimseu]

Yes, I hear this put forth quite a bit. SD seems to be at the bottom of the list, on some people's list. But I can't help but feel that is intentional. After all, SD is straight-foward and hard work. It isn't flashy like sport. It doesn't keep the kids, or fast-food society adults 'entertained'. And it certainly doesn't help the instructor...let's see, how did Al put it...'drive his mercedez to the bank'. And with all the Mcdojangs around touting entertainment disguised as SD, other reasons need to come to the surface for training. Let's be honest, when one thinks of a hard-core method of SD...TKD isn't on most people's list. And there is a valid reason it isn't...because 'modern' TKD doesn't use effective SD training methodoloy.

But it use to have it! That is my point. So perhaps we can compromise on our positions; Old school probably wouldn't do for modern sport training. But modern doesn't hold a candle to old school as far as SD.

As an example;

Most 'modern' TKD practitioners would think this down block is used to block an incoming kick or strike. And that's a shame, because it isn't meant for that at all.

Sorry if you object to me putting self defense last in my list. I didn't mean to imply that self-defense was not a worthy reason to train, merely that it is one of many reasons a person might train. It is my belief that the majority of people training at taekwondo schools these days are not training primarily for self-defense, which could very well affect the perception that taekwondo is not suitable for hard-core self-defense training.

I don't know how sport training stacks up against "traditional" training for self-defense. I do know that sport style training could help someone interested in self-defense hit harder and faster. How can we accurately test if training is "effective" for self-defense, anyway. It seems to be opinions being thrown out as facts, really. I've seen the same sport vs. self-defense debates raging on these MA forums forever. I don't think either side can truly prove its position in the argument. It's like an atheist arguing with a Christian over the existence of God.

I think it's the same with arguing about the original intent of techniques, for example is a low block a low block? You could demonstrate a million different applications for the movement, but I don't believe that anyone really knows what the actual application was, and I really don't know that it matters. I suspect that for the vast majority of people, it doesn't.

 

[Manny]

Who was his Jidokwan teacher?

Here you have it. Back in 1968 if I recall grand master An Dae Sup was brougth to Mexico City to show Karate Koreano (Tae Kwon Do in those years was called Korean karate also), Grand master An teach amoungh others Master Agustin Guerra Melchor and Ramon Alvite Gazca (mi former JDK Master), as I recall Master ramon Alvite came to veracruz back in 1979 and he was the head and representative of Jido kwan Mexico for many years. Most of the Blacks Blets in TKD born and raised in my city came from ramon Alvite Gazca Jido kwan lineage.

Manny

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I like reminiscing about the "good ol' days" just as much as the next person, and I still use methods of training that I was taught when I first started. However, things evolve even in the realm of SD. People who trained in SD decades ago would not be training in the same manner today simply because of new research about the mindset of an attacker, mindset of a victim and other factors have come to light. Sure basics may be the same, but if you are training the same way they did back in the '40's you will most likely have your *** handed to you in the street today.

Sorry Jeremy, that dog doesn't hunt. WWII combatives, as I've mentioned before, and as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, O'Neill etc is far more effective than modern TKD. They aren't even in the same zip code. Same thing can be said of any 'old school' brand of Karate or TKD. As far as SD goes, modern TKD isn't even close. They have completely different training methodologies.

New research as you put it, verifies what 'old school' had already been doing i.e. flinch response, flight or flight, adrenaline dump, loss of dexterity in the extremities under duress, auditory exclusion, O.O.D.A. loop etc. All of which can be seen in old school training, be it martial arts, D.T. or military training. And modern training...doesn't address these issues.

 

[Jaeimseu]

That's right. I crack up at so-called old school self defense theorist who don't train full contact. One solid punch to the face, the lights go out and all that theory goes out the window.

I like Mike Tyson's quote: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"

Ha, it doesn't have to be a punch to the face, either. I've seen plenty of plans get changed after taking a good round kick to the hogu. Hard contact is a game changer. Too many people don't realize how hard a "sport" tkd guy can hit. Watching a Youtube video and getting kicked are two very different things.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

That's right. I crack up at so-called old school self defense theorist who don't train full contact. One solid punch to the face, the lights go out and all that theory goes out the window.

First off Al, no one mentioned not training full contact. Training with a referee, safety equipment and a lengthy set of rules in a controlled environment, on a flat, level, dry surface, in full light with no weapons or multiple attackers is NOT full contact training. Sport 'full contact' training is something instructors who have no knowledge of SD have their students do to give them the illusion their actually getting their monies worth.

But rather than park their egos and learn from their seniors on the SD side of the isle, they stick with smart-alec remarks and one-liners to mask their inexperience and/or unwillingness to learn for the sake of their students.

 

[mastercole]

Here you have it. Back in 1968 if I recall grand master An Dae Sup was brougth to Mexico City to show Karate Koreano (Tae Kwon Do in those years was called Korean karate also), Grand master An teach amoungh others Master Agustin Guerra Melchor and Ramon Alvite Gazca (mi former JDK Master), as I recall Master ramon Alvite came to veracruz back in 1979 and he was the head and representative of Jido kwan Mexico for many years. Most of the Blacks Blets in TKD born and raised in my city came from ramon Alvite Gazca Jido kwan lineage.

Manny

Grandmaster AHN Dae Sup currently teaches the Kukkiwon curriculum at his school in McAllen, TX. He was also instrumental in developing the modern training methods used for Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Taekwondo Sparring). I spoke with him recently in Seoul, Korea where he received an award for doing just that.

If Master Gazca is still practicing and teaching what he learned from GM Ahn back in the 60's, it appears he did not follow GM Ahn or the Jidokwan as both helped develop Taekwondo to where it is today.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It is my belief that the majority of people training at taekwondo schools these days are not training primarily for self-defense, which could very well affect the perception that taekwondo is not suitable for hard-core self-defense training.

The majority of TKD may not train for SD because the majority of TKD schools don't know what SD training actually is. That isn't meant to be a slam on anyone. But judging from the comments I generally see here in the TKD section, there are only a handful of people that understand what SD training methodology is and why sport training is the polar opposite.

I don't know how sport training stacks up against "traditional" training for self-defense. I do know that sport style training could help someone interested in self-defense hit harder and faster.

I disagree for a plethora of reasons.

How can we accurately test if training is "effective" for self-defense, anyway.

What we really need is a member of Martial Talk to chime in that has trained in both venues. A member that knows the methodology of each venue. A member that has actually used the martial arts against violent, resisting, determined attackers..oh say a few hundred times successfully. If only we had a member like that willing to face all the one-liner attacks from the same people in hopes that a few will actually see the point he's trying to make. If only we had a member like that willing to speak out from experience and not theory.

Oh wait....that's me :ultracool

No I'm not thumping my chest. No, I'm not special. No, I'm not bullet proof. No, I'm not better than anyone else. But yeah, I've got an opinion and the experience to back it up. Yeah, I've taught over a thousand high liabilty professionals, many of which now teach, many of which have used what I taught to save themselves or another in violent altercations. And yeah, I'm willing to take the flack from the peanut gallery in order to stand up for something that can help someone in a crisis situation over something likely to get them hurt or killed.

Now let's have some more jabs and one-liners from the gallery :uhyeah:

 

[Manny]

Okey... I will try to tell you my feelings in english, pardon me if you may understan them or not but believe it's gona be hard to explain myself. When I was a blue belt my jidokwan master opened another dojang this dojan was run by one of his most capable instructors Jorge Morales, this new dojan was near by my home so I moved from Jido kwan Central to Jido kwan Reforma, I was the top student there and I developed a very nice relation with young Jorge Morales I took him like my eldest brother in TKD, Jorge teach me and make me a black belt.

Over the time Jorge broke relationships (working,political and emotional) with Grand Master Alavite, I never asked Jorge what hapened I only follow him (that was 1992 I guess), Jorge got inside a new dojang/organization that was formed by another Alvite's pupil so I stick with Jorge in the new organization.

Jorge has to emigrate and left my City around 1994-95 at that time I was just married, working and had quit TKD so I returned to Jido Kwan Central but nothing was the same, the relation beetwen G.M. Alvite was very good but not one of my former classmates was there, i was overweight, slow very slow and felt like a dinosaur with the new guys, I pushed myself alot trying to emulate the old days but can't stand the rithm of the working out sessions, blisters,burns, pain,lactid acid made me feel like I was a looser so I quit again.

It was till 2007 that I found the nice dojang I am part off, my new master listen to me, give me advises and took me below his wing and slow but steady put me in better shape and slowly a good relationship began to the point to make me his senior instructor. It was trough Hwarang Organization and head master that I got inside TKD again, right now I have an status inside Hwarang TKD and a very nie relationship with my master, in some ways I took him like my mentor.

I feel if I take some clases with my former master or return to my former organization I can break my actual master heart and I don't want this, even my actual master know that deep in my heart I am a Jido Kwaner and an old school tkd guy.

I am so deep inside my actual organization that i feel I am betraying my master and organization if I leave to return to my old organization/master.

I am still conected to Jido Kwan, I visit my ex master frequently but as a friend and my actual master knows this, and as some one told me NO PUEDES ESTAR CON EL DIABLO Y CON DIOS AL MISMO TIEMPO ASI QUE TOMA UNA DESICION translation.... make a desicion... you can't be with god or the devila at the same time .....

Well sorry for this soup opera and the time I took for you for reading this b..... s...... but you know now something more about me.

Manny

 

[andyjeffries]

Fair enough. What would you consider as an improvement?

I'll give an easy answer - static stretching. In the old days we used to spend "long periods" sitting on the floor with our legs in a stretched position, holding it for periods of time. Then get up feeling achey/sore and not at all ready for the highly dynamic nature of Taekwondo. There were some people that had good gains from stretching like this and some that saw next to no gains.

Fast forward now to a dynamic warm-up (think Tom Kurz's dynamic stretches or Mark Kovacs book) that leaves people "ready to go" after the warmup and isometric stretches for non-Taekwondo days that are seeing major increases in flexibility even in stiff people.

 

[mastercole]

Ha, it doesn't have to be a punch to the face, either. I've seen plenty of plans get changed after taking a good round kick to the hogu. Hard contact is a game changer. Too many people don't realize how hard a "sport" tkd guy can hit. Watching a Youtube video and getting kicked are two very different things.

I have trained in old school and modern training methods and have discovered the modern training methods to be superior. A number of guys from my older days have stopped by and tried training with us, they are stunned at the skill, and as you say, how hard the students can hit. All a result of superior training methods.

 

[mastercole]

Okey... I will try to tell you my feelings in english, pardon me if you may understan them or not but believe it's gona be hard to explain myself. When I was a blue belt my jidokwan master opened another dojang this dojan was run by one of his most capable instructors Jorge Morales, this new dojan was near by my home so I moved from Jido kwan Central to Jido kwan Reforma, I was the top student there and I developed a very nice relation with young Jorge Morales I took him like my eldest brother in TKD, Jorge teach me and make me a black belt.

Over the time Jorge broke relationships (working,political and emotional) with Grand Master Alavite, I never asked Jorge what hapened I only follow him (that was 1992 I guess), Jorge got inside a new dojang/organization that was formed by another Alvite's pupil so I stick with Jorge in the new organization.

Jorge has to emigrate and left my City around 1994-95 at that time I was just married, working and had quit TKD so I returned to Jido Kwan Central but nothing was the same, the relation beetwen G.M. Alvite was very good but not one of my former classmates was there, i was overweight, slow very slow and felt like a dinosaur with the new guys, I pushed myself alot trying to emulate the old days but can't stand the rithm of the working out sessions, blisters,burns, pain,lactid acid made me feel like I was a looser so I quit again.

It was till 2007 that I found the nice dojang I am part off, my new master listen to me, give me advises and took me below his wing and slow but steady put me in better shape and slowly a good relationship began to the point to make me his senior instructor. It was trough Hwarang Organization and head master that I got inside TKD again, right now I have an status inside Hwarang TKD and a very nie relationship with my master, in some ways I took him like my mentor.

I feel if I take some clases with my former master or return to my former organization I can break my actual master heart and I don't want this, even my actual master know that deep in my heart I am a Jido Kwaner and an old school tkd guy.

I am so deep inside my actual organization that i feel I am betraying my master and organization if I leave to return to my old organization/master.

I am still conected to Jido Kwan, I visit my ex master frequently but as a friend and my actual master knows this, and as some one told me NO PUEDES ESTAR CON EL DIABLO Y CON DIOS AL MISMO TIEMPO ASI QUE TOMA UNA DESICION translation.... make a desicion... you can't be with god or the devila at the same time .....

Well sorry for this soup opera and the time I took for you for reading this b..... s...... but you know now something more about me.

Manny

But Jidokwan was a key developer of the modern training. Jidokwan does not endorse old methods. To be a part of Jidokwan it to be modern in your approach to Taekwondo.

 

[miguksaram]

Sorry Jeremy, that dog doesn't hunt. WWII combatives, as I've mentioned before, and as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, O'Neill etc is far more effective than modern TKD. They aren't even in the same zip code. Same thing can be said of any 'old school' brand of Karate or TKD. As far as SD goes, modern TKD isn't even close. They have completely different training methodologies.

New research as you put it, verifies what 'old school' had already been doing i.e. flinch response, flight or flight, adrenaline dump, loss of dexterity in the extremities under duress, auditory exclusion, O.O.D.A. loop etc. All of which can be seen in old school training, be it martial arts, D.T. or military training. And modern training...doesn't address these issues.

I'm surprised as a LEO that you do not see the positives of modern training methods. Are you telling me you use the same method of investigations and firearms training as a LEO that they did 40 or 50 years ago? I am also not saying that old school training is obsolete, there is a place for it. However, to discard modern training for the sake of "keeping it real" or one's preconceived notion of "keeping it real"

And yes while physical aspects of the human body will tend to be the same, but the training in how we deal with them evolves. Again, I would like to know how you feel your experience in modern TKD training methods have hindered your "old school" training? What modern TKD training methods did you use specifically, where did you learn them and from who?

 

[Archtkd]

We chat and chat about olimpic TKD and clasic TKD, about the old good days and today, the nice things we had in the past and it was very refreshing.

Master Alvite told me he still teaches TKD like he did 30 years ago and I know it's true cause I have visiting him over the years and sat and saw his class, he told me because of politics he quit the State TKD Asociation and even he was a good fighter in his youth and even national champ he does not like the way TKD is been taught this days because it's Olimpic tKD only and TKD is much more than that.

I had a wonderful time chating with my mentor and it's ggod to know we have strong feelings for each other, he is a gentelman and one of the best TKD men I Know.

Manny

Manny could you give us a better idea of how and what Master Alvite taught 30 years ago to bring the thread back to track? Give us specifics. What are we really talking about? Basics, conditioning, poomsae, self defense, philosophy, etc? You mention Master Alvite was a competitor in his youth? What type of competitions did he participate in?