OK, so now I'm pissed...

[Makalakumu]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/

MINNEAPOLIS - A busy highway bridge that spans the Mississippi River just northeast of Minneapolis collapsed during rush hour Wednesday, sending a school bus, other vehicles and tons of concrete crashing into the water.

The entire span of the Interstate 35W bridge collapsed about 6:05 p.m. A tractor-trailer caught fire, and flame and black smoke billowed into the sky.

Local media reported 20 to 30 injuries and one death. NBC News reported that every Minneapolis ambulance had been requested to the scene.

Alright everybody, the stuff that I predicted 10 years ago is starting to happen. Our government has been spending money on bombs and useless wars for so long that all of the infrastructure that we built over 40 years ago is ready to collapse...and is collapsing! How much longer are we as a people going to let this happen! Seriously, are we so afraid of some gad damned unnamed enemy that we can't even fix our own roads any more!

I've driven across that bridge for years and years and years. Maybe next time it will be you...and I bet you probably have a better chance that the ****ing bridge will collapse if compared to the odds of a terrorist attack.

Ok, seriously pissed. This is my home. Rant over.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Sukerkin]

No need to be ashamed of that reaction, Upnorth - it's pretty much spot on that what with private sector funded wars and apocolyptic graft and pocket lining our infrastructure has been hung out to dry.

Some things are not profitable but are necessary and the sooner governments re-realise that and put them under the public umbrella the better.

 

[Ella]

Quite a slippery slope there, don't you think?


Was it obvious that the bridge had problems? How long was the bridge supposed to last? I mean, if they thought it would last 100 years and something went wrong, the government can hardly be blamed. Accidents happen, whether the country is at war or not.

It certainly is unfortunate, but blaming it on the government because we're at war is simply ludicrous

 

[Steel Tiger]

Damn! This is something I have been expecting in the US for a few years now (read an engineering article about America's roads and bridges). Mate, you have every right to be angry, decades of near neglect is going to come back to bite someone, and here it is. America's infrastructure is simply decayed into a past century (and I don't mean the 20th).

Sukerkin is right. The sooner governments everywhere re-learn that there are some things they just have to do regardless of the cost or the impression it gives to the voters the better. It all sounds very socialist (Australia is a very socialist country afterall) but somethings just need a single oversight rather than 50.

Our government down here has recently made two sweeping decisions. The first was to take control of Aboriginal regional communities and the second was to bring some hospitals under its sway. Don't know about the first, might be a disaster. The second is a good thing as hospital sare jointly funded by the Federal and State governments but wholy run by the states who just blame the Feds if something goes wrong.

 

[Ella]

Maybe you're right... but I think we need more information before we begin jumping to conclusions. Was the bridge supposed to last a very long time and something went wrong? Was it supposed to be inspected and never was?

I'm not saying its NOT the government's fault, but I think you guys should find out more about it before jumping to conclusions. There are enough REAL reasons to dislike the american government without making up new ones which may or may not be based in fact.

 

[CuongNhuka]

You live in Wisoncsin, right? You're in good standing in the community, right? Well, here is what I would do if I had such fierce beliefs (which I do), and was in you're situation. Spend some time investing in research into various civil projects that need to be completed/fixed, and other social issues of the same nature, and run for Governor. Run on a platform of reform, and (novel idea) actually REFORM!
Ella, I think what the other folks on the thread are talking about as far as "the government should have done somthing" is that, well they are the government. It is one of the responsiblities of the government to maintain such public works. They didn't do that, because they are focused on the War, and not there own citizens.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Maybe you're right... but I think we need more information before we begin jumping to conclusions. Was the bridge supposed to last a very long time and something went wrong? Was it supposed to be inspected and never was?

I'm not saying its NOT the government's fault, but I think you guys should find out more about it before jumping to conclusions. There are enough REAL reasons to dislike the american government without making up new ones which may or may not be based in fact.

The problem of infrastructure, especially road infrastructure, in the US is an old one. The engineering community has been warning of these problems for nearly 20 years now. Its not that it is a new reason to dislike the government so much as it is a castigation for not doing what they should be. Bridges, especially ones across major rivers, should be inspected annually as they are true weak points in the road system, but they are not being done well enough or frequently enough.

As you say this may have been a catastrophic failure no one was prepared for, but I find it more likely that it was just not maintained because of budgetry constriction.

 

[MBuzzy]

Obviously, this is a horrible tragedy, but so far all of the reports that I have seen have been about the accident itself and the reactions. I am sure that more information will come out regarding the actual causes. When something like this happens, they call in Civil Engineers from all over the country to come evaluate and determine the exact cause.

As a pavement engineer and civil engineer (not by any means a bridge specialist), I can make limited comments on this...

First off, structures of ANY KIND are not designed to "catastrophically fail" - in fact, we design them so that they first deform, THEN fail. This is why bridges have required inspections at regular intervals, to try to catch things like this. Obviously, that doesn't always work...due to inattentive inspectors, unnoticeable deformations, or even NO deformations...sometimes materials just fail for no reason.

With that said....The infrastructure of this country (roads wise) IS falling apart. I cringe everyday as I see some new blunder being made in the name of saving money. We tar and chip seal roads to "rehabilitate the pavement" because it is a cheap, quick, and easy band aid...but it only lasts a year or two. In the mean times damaging cars, hurting the underlying pavement and closing roads more often than necessary. We make patches to pot holes with cold patch to get on and off quickly and cheaply...but again, the pothole comes back so quick that it is barely worth it. There are correct ways to do these things that WORK and LAST.....the local and federal governments are simply not willing to spend the money. We evaluate these roads based on an economic curve...basically, we repair it until it is more cost effective to simply replace it...even if that means repairing the road every month.

Pavement and infrastructure is a touchy subject for me, because I KNOW that there are better ways to do things. I have no idea what caused this tragedy, but I do know that there is a good chance that it could have been prevented with proper maintenance and inspections.

One thing that I can say for sure...unless it is proved conclusively that this was a complete fluke, unpreventable, and there were no signs of distress or deformation, there are a lot of people who will be losing jobs and very possible a PE (Professional Engineer) who will go to jail.

 

[Monadnock]

As you say this may have been a catastrophic failure no one was prepared for, but I find it more likely that it was just not maintained because of budgetry constriction.

Good point. Many highways and roads have been paid for 10X by the tolls paid by travelers. If the money went to where it should have this might be less likely to happen.

 

[MBuzzy]

The problem of infrastructure, especially road infrastructure, in the US is an old one. The engineering community has been warning of these problems for nearly 20 years now. Its not that it is a new reason to dislike the government so much as it is a castigation for not doing what they should be. Bridges, especially ones across major rivers, should be inspected annually as they are true weak points in the road system, but they are not being done well enough or frequently enough.

Steel Tiger,

Great points....I have personally been in the situation where I have recommended the BEST course of action and was refused due to budget and forced to use a cheaper, less effective method. That is actually a driving factor for MOST pavement and road failures. Cut costs by using 1" less of base course, speed up the road closure by not getting full compaction, etc.....It is a shame that the people TRULY responsible (those holding the purse strings) will not be blamed, but the local engineers who more than likely KNEW the right way to do things but were not allowed.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There are several bridges near me that are known problems. Little things like large chunks of cement falling from them....the county put up netting to catch the pieces....and the nets are straining under the weight of tha growing accumulation of debris. People have been injured, cars damaged, yet the bridges continue to decay. NY is famous for letting it's roads and bridges rot.

 

[Makalakumu]

Great points....I have personally been in the situation where I have recommended the BEST course of action and was refused due to budget and forced to use a cheaper, less effective method. That is actually a driving factor for MOST pavement and road failures. Cut costs by using 1" less of base course, speed up the road closure by not getting full compaction, etc.....It is a shame that the people TRULY responsible (those holding the purse strings) will not be blamed, but the local engineers who more than likely KNEW the right way to do things but were not allowed.

Even though I currently live in WI, I grew up in MN all of my life and many people in my family have worked on crews or led the crews responsible for getting the work done that needs to be done. Your story, MBuzzy is all too common. Especially under the successive Republican administrations in MN. They would rather bond then spend when it comes to infrastructure, but this strategy just doesn't work because the bonding runs out and the bills are continuous.

The botton line is that the government is, by and large, dropping the ball when it comes to infrastructure all across the US. From the state to the federal level, politicians would rather spend our tax dollars on their favorite subsidized industries like military or petroleum or you name it. This is the real price of that kind of graft.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Just something of an update.

The bridge was last inspected two years ago and was undergoing routine maintenance throughout the last tow years.

So it looks like MBuzzy is right someone is in it deep for this one.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Even though I currently live in WI, I grew up in MN all of my life and many people in my family have worked on crews or led the crews responsible for getting the work done that needs to be done. Your story, MBuzzy is all too common. Especially under the successive Republican administrations in MN. They would rather bond then spend when it comes to infrastructure, but this strategy just doesn't work because the bonding runs out and the bills are continuous.

The botton line is that the government is, by and large, dropping the ball when it comes to infrastructure all across the US. From the state to the federal level, politicians would rather spend our tax dollars on their favorite subsidized industries like military or petroleum or you name it. This is the real price of that kind of graft.

I go back to my "you're in good standing with the community, run for governor, run on a platform of reform, and actually REFORM!" statement.

 

[jks9199]

The problem of infrastructure, especially road infrastructure, in the US is an old one. The engineering community has been warning of these problems for nearly 20 years now. Its not that it is a new reason to dislike the government so much as it is a castigation for not doing what they should be. Bridges, especially ones across major rivers, should be inspected annually as they are true weak points in the road system, but they are not being done well enough or frequently enough.

As you say this may have been a catastrophic failure no one was prepared for, but I find it more likely that it was just not maintained because of budgetry constriction.

Yep... It's not the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait, or even Vietnam.

It's a simple pattern of neglect going back probably to hours after the first road in the Interstate Highway System was paved.

Nobody wants to pay more taxes; nobody wants to hold builders accountable for the roads that whatever they build will require. And then, they get so busy playing catch up on the new stuff that the old stuff falls apart.

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge on the Capital Beltway is a fantastic example. By the time it was completed, it was already at or over capacity. In the 70s and 80s, it was in such a state of disrepair that you could see the Potomac River through the bridge as you drove over it -- and more than one car started to fall through! It's now 2007; they've finally completed ONE span of a replacement that may actually be, when the second span is complete, sufficient for the number of travelers for a few years. If we're lucky. Now, I'll grant that there are some unique problems with that bridge (it's actually the ONLY federal drawbridge; it's technically neither in VA, DC, nor MD's road system... and it's a friggin' DRAWBRIDGE on a major road...) -- but it's a good example.

Trust me. You don't even want to THINK about plumbing and electrical infrastructure, especially in lots of our cities. You just don't even wanna go there.

 

[CuongNhuka]

The Woodrow Wilson Bridge on the Capital Beltway is a fantastic example. By the time it was completed, it was already at or over capacity. In the 70s and 80s, it was in such a state of disrepair that you could see the Potomac River through the bridge as you drove over it -- and more than one car started to fall through! It's now 2007; they've finally completed ONE span of a replacement that may actually be, when the second span is complete, sufficient for the number of travelers for a few years. If we're lucky. Now, I'll grant that there are some unique problems with that bridge (it's actually the ONLY federal drawbridge; it's technically neither in VA, DC, nor MD's road system... and it's a friggin' DRAWBRIDGE on a major road...) -- but it's a good example.

Trust me. You don't even want to THINK about plumbing and electrical infrastructure, especially in lots of our cities. You just don't even wanna go there.

Maybe he should run for President after a few years as Governor?

 

[Makalakumu]

I go back to my "you're in good standing with the community, run for governor, run on a platform of reform, and actually REFORM!" statement.

It's hard to run on a platform of "we need to raise taxes in order to pay for the things we have." Trust me. I've been involved in local politics since I was 14 and helping my Mom with various people's campaigns. The will to do something just hasn't been there and now we are going to pay for it, big time. I suspect that this won't be the first bridge to collapse in this country. Sad. Very sad.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?

 

[Makalakumu]

Who is responsible for the maintainance of that bridge? City, County, State?

It depends on the roadway. If you take a look at a map, you'll see designations for particular roads...Interstate, US Highway, State Highway, County Road, etc. These designations basically explain who is paying for them, who is responsible for them.

For this particular bridge, the funding and impetus for maintanance comes from the federal level. It's part of the interstate highway system.

 

[CuongNhuka]

It's hard to run on a platform of "we need to raise taxes in order to pay for the things we have." Trust me. I've been involved in local politics since I was 14 and helping my Mom with various people's campaigns. The will to do something just hasn't been there and now we are going to pay for it, big time. I suspect that this won't be the first bridge to collapse in this country. Sad. Very sad.

You could easily run on a platform of "I will barely raise taxes, find where money is mismanaged and FIX what needs fixing!" If you ran in Nebraska, I would get my freinds/family/Cuong Nhu family to vote for you. In of it self, that isn't too much, but it's something!