Ok, how do you get to THAT point.....?

[Forever Training]

After having studied Kempo with its forms and combinations/techniques for years now, I have had a question
on my mind that is driving me crazy...

In my BB test, we were put on the spot to instinctively react to one-attacker and multiple-attacker
situations without time to think. It was clear to me that no student I saw (including myself) was truly at
that point where they could instantly react well, meaning proper blocking, multiple counters, maybe a takedown,
moving to the next attacker... all with seamless fluidity on a non-thinking level.

Maybe it is unreasonable to expect that level of skill & ability before the dan ranks....
But the answer can't be "It just takes time, keep practicing your combos."

How does one actually get to the point where s/he can react instinctively with improvisation from
their arsenal of techniques? Or better, transcend their "canned" techniques...

How does one get so good that they look like they are on automatic pilot, not thinking, just doing?
What is the secret?

Is the answer as simple as continuously training reaction drills?

Who here feels they are at that level and how did you get there?

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

 

[K-man]

Interesting question. I conducted a grading last week where there was a segment that was meant to allow the guys to demonstrate multiple techniques like locks, holds and takedowns against a semi-complying partner from random attacks. The guys attacking were green belts and the guys grading were experienced black belts. The guys attacking were way more exuberant than I had envisaged and I let it run to see how it worked out and it worked just fine. They were working on auto pilot and I had to let it run longer than normal to allow enough techniques to be shown because on auto pilot you instinctively do what comes naturally and that may well be predominantly the same technique to a variety of attacks.

In your post you referred to 'proper' techniques. Don't forget that 'proper' techniques are for learning. The real 'proper' techniques come in the application and may not look a lot like the basic technique at all.
:asian:

 

[Forever Training]

In your post you referred to 'proper' techniques. Don't forget that 'proper' techniques are for learning. The real 'proper' techniques come in the application and may not look a lot like the basic technique at all.

Hi K-man,

It's funny you say that... the other night, we did a drill where I get in the middle of a circle of students,
my sensei calls out a technique number or name as someone on the circle punches in.

At the end of my turn, I showed my disappointment at the accuracy and precision in which I did them.
My instructor responded that it wasn't supposed to look like the "proper execution". That got me thinking...

But still during this drill I am hesitating, thinking, processing then executing, not just reacting.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

For one thing, you can't just "react instinctively with improvisation from your arsenal of techniques" during a test. You have to be doing that during training on a regular basis. Whether it's sparring, scenario-based drills, or some other form of non-preset drill, it has to be a part of your normal training.

 

[K-man]

Hi K-man,

It's funny you say that... the other night, we did a drill where I get in the middle of a circle of students,
my sensei calls out a technique number or name as someone on the circle punches in.

At the end of my turn, I showed my disappointment at the accuracy and precision in which I did them.
My instructor responded that it wasn't supposed to look like the "proper execution". That got me thinking...

But still during this drill I am hesitating, thinking, processing then executing, not just reacting.

As Tony said, to be instinctive you have to train it regularly. One of the things I have taken into my regular training from Systema is their circle training for multiple attackers and we do it regularly. It is good fun apart from good training but the thing it does best is to get you to relax in that situation. If you are tense strikes hitting you will be more damaging and being tense limits your ability to respond quickly.

But the way I teach is 'learn the technique, drill the technique then forget the technique' then the technique will be there for you when you need it. That works well in the multiple random attack scenario.
:asian:

 

[Blindside]

After having studied Kempo with its forms and combinations/techniques for years now, I have had a question
on my mind that is driving me crazy...

In my BB test, we were put on the spot to instinctively react to one-attacker and multiple-attacker
situations without time to think. It was clear to me that no student I saw (including myself) was truly at
that point where they could instantly react well, meaning proper blocking, multiple counters, maybe a takedown,
moving to the next attacker... all with seamless fluidity on a non-thinking level.

Maybe it is unreasonable to expect that level of skill & ability before the dan ranks....
But the answer can't be "It just takes time, keep practicing your combos."

How does one actually get to the point where s/he can react instinctively with improvisation from
their arsenal of techniques? Or better, transcend their "canned" techniques...

How does one get so good that they look like they are on automatic pilot, not thinking, just doing?
What is the secret?

Is the answer as simple as continuously training reaction drills?

Who here feels they are at that level and how did you get there?

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

Your test is basically a randori situation with multiple people feeding attacks and you are supposed to react in an appropriate self-defence manuever?

The answer is basically reps, how often do you practice this in your class? Not practicing memorized techniques, just free flow reaction?

 

[Carol]

What level of contact are you accustomed to, and how much freeform training did your class do -- where you had to react without demonstrating technique "foo" ?

 

[Blindside]

Hi K-man,

It's funny you say that... the other night, we did a drill where I get in the middle of a circle of students,
my sensei calls out a technique number or name as someone on the circle punches in.

At the end of my turn, I showed my disappointment at the accuracy and precision in which I did them.
My instructor responded that it wasn't supposed to look like the "proper execution". That got me thinking...

But still during this drill I am hesitating, thinking, processing then executing, not just reacting.

If you are supposed to be responding with a particular named technique, then you have to think about it. The amount of effort it would take to hardwire "dance of grouse" into a good enough reaction time to actually react would be a waste of time. The techs are a teaching method, a kata, not an end goal, people get too fixated on a particular choreography.

 

[jks9199]

Responding under pressure like that isn't assessed by whether you did a perfect version of Five Swords or whatever. Look at whether your response are fluid, demonstrating the principles of your art in both strategy and execution. For me, I want to see students transition through stances, using stepping, and avoidance, and counter-attacking. If what they're doing is within the principles -- they've succeeded. It shouldn't look JUST like the drills, forms/kata, and other excercises -- but it should be recognizable as containing elements from them and being built on the principles within them. For American Kempo, from what I know, I would look for fluid flow from technique to technique within the response, responding to the ongoing changes in position between the two fighters. For an aikido stylist -- I'd look for them to enter, and redirect the attack. For a wing chun student, I'd look for them to move in continuously, deflecting their opponents attack with their own. All of these are probably way to generalized, and may be off base; someone with a better background in the styles can certainly flesh it out -- but I think they give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

And the key to getting there is, of course, lots of practice to really internalize those principles. How does a jazz musician sit down and jam with a bunch of strangers? They've practiced enough to have the rhythms, flows, beats, etc. a part of them.

 

[K-man]

If you are supposed to be responding with a particular named technique, then you have to think about it. The amount of effort it would take to hardwire "dance of grouse" into a good enough reaction time to actually react would be a waste of time. The techs are a teaching method, a kata, not an end goal, people get too fixated on a particular choreography.

No, that's not what I was saying. To be honest I might have misread the OP. If it means that the instructor was calling out the defensive technique against an attack that was already on the way then that is never going to work IMO. I think it's almost impossible to produce any named defence to a given attack if that attack is full speed and random. What works beautifully in choreography doesn't necessarily work in practice no matter how many thousand times you might drill it.

What I was looking for in my guys grading was the range of techniques they employed when dealing with unscripted attacks that built up to quite good intensity, not just one named technique.

Certainly the techs are a teaching method as in kihon, but, depending on the style of MA, I don't look at kata the same way. If your kata is a fighting system then being able to utilise it without thinking is an end goal. Applying bunkai to a kata should not be choreography IMO.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Three words, Points of Reference. If you don't use and understand them, you won't achieve what you are trying to do. It sounds like you are having a, "too little to late" problem. Just be ready.
Sean

 

[Blindside]

Three words, Points of Reference. If you don't use and understand them, you won't achieve what you are trying to do. It sounds like you are having a, "too little to late" problem. Just be ready.
Sean

While I think I know what you are talking about, it is only because of seeing you post over the years, you may have to provide a bit more expanation for others.

 

[Touch Of Death]

While I think I know what you are talking about, it is only because of seeing you post over the years, you may have to provide a bit more expanation for others.

Well, every move we make with our hands should both start and end at the hip, same shoulder, or opposite shoulder. Like a big circle. So, rather than the standard, "Use combinations", idea, we create system where after each strike, we intelligently return to one of those three points based on the logic of the situation, where then, and only then, are we in a position to do anything about the reality we see before us.
Sean

 

[K-man]

Well, every move we make with our hands should both start and end at the hip, same shoulder, or opposite shoulder. Like a big circle. So, rather than the standard, "Use combinations", idea, we create system where after each strike, we intelligently return to one of those three points based on the logic of the situation, where then, and only then, are we in a position to do anything about the reality we see before us.
Sean

Is that specifically a Kenpo thing?

 

[Blindside]

Is that specifically a Kenpo thing?

A particular lineage of kenpo.

 

[Touch Of Death]

There is a TKD thread bout chambering to the hip. I had an answer, but just read the other answers, and move on. LOL

 

[Forever Training]

But the way I teach is 'learn the technique, drill the technique then forget the technique' then the technique will be there for you when you need it. That works well in the multiple random attack scenario.
:asian:

I like that. But it requires a great deal of faith in one's ability of instant recall, unless you train it during freeform reaction drills which we are clearly not doing enough of.

 

[Forever Training]

What level of contact are you accustomed to, and how much freeform training did your class do -- where you had to react without demonstrating technique "foo" ?

Carol,
Light contact up to BB. Now I notice a little harder.

JKS, the jazz jam session... great analogy.

Many great responses which point to my guess what the answer would be in the OP.... continuously training reaction drills.
Not in calling out combos, but just reacting without thinking... freeform. Clearly we are not doing these exercise enough in class. I think I will discuss with my Sensei before next class.

 

[Blindside]

I like that. But it requires a great deal of faith in one's ability of instant recall.

It isn't "recall" it simply becomes reference points.

 

[DennisBreene]

Hi K-man,

It's funny you say that... the other night, we did a drill where I get in the middle of a circle of students,
my sensei calls out a technique number or name as someone on the circle punches in.

At the end of my turn, I showed my disappointment at the accuracy and precision in which I did them.
My instructor responded that it wasn't supposed to look like the "proper execution". That got me thinking...

But still during this drill I am hesitating, thinking, processing then executing, not just reacting.

We did something similar in a recent Modern Arnis seminar. The drill was specifically a ring of attackers delivering one of twelve strikes and the defender in the center doing the appropriate disarm for the strike. I noted that, from the most inexperienced to the most advanced, we all tended to have some disconnect from the specific technique and specific disarm. As we continued the drill, however, reactions to attacks became more fluid even when it was the "wrong" technique. It was a great drill and ultimately reinforced both reacting smoothly to an attack and connecting a specific attack to a specific disarm. It was also a lot of fun.