Oh Crap I'm on my back!!!

[Hollywood1340]

Chris, although I try not to throw is name around. Cool guy, eh? Awesome technician. I'm just remebering the "Knowledge dies when it is not passed on, and thrives when it is shared." (Kinda like my HKD insturctor not showing me the forms...ergg!) Please remember I don't train in EPAK, I'm a CHKD/Judo guy, so my views on grappling differ a bit. I've stated before, a wide base on which to draw from is essential. EPAK has that don't get me wrong, but going beyond the "Curriculum" is also essential IMHO with any martial art. I understand Mr. Parker was a Judoka. Judo has been shown to be a great benifit to an AKK student, "First slap then silly, then throw them on their head, remain standing and repeat." HEHE. Free your mind, and your a*s will follow. Just remember to use a good breakfall

:soapbox:

 

[Blindside]

Hi again Hollywood,

Actually I was in Missoula all of last week, and I was training with Chris every night. I actually tried dropping by your school but it was closed when I stopped by, maybe next time. I actually agree more than disagree with your point BTW.

Lamont

 

[Roland]

I have seen the video you are talking about, good points man!!

 

[Roland]

About no one really knowing breakfalls that day.
I love it when you get all upset about stuff like that. I felt the same, but not at your intensity level.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Roland
About no one really knowing breakfalls that day.
I love it when you get all upset about stuff like that. I felt the same, but not at your intensity level.

That's right. That was the seminar where the infamous "Butt Punch" was born after I gave you the flying elbow drop.

I think what made me so angry was that I had to listen to people all day tell me about how high a rank they were and yet they couldn't breakfall.

 

[Kenpo Wolf]

I have applied the base move of the techniques snaking talon with sword and hammer from a mounted position in class a few times. Theoriticaly speaking, I dont see why it would'nt work on the street

Prone Swords (better name advice?)
Application; Defense vs Mount

1. As your opponent is reaching trying to choke you, apply a left striking check to the back of his right elbow and catching his right wrist with your right hand.

2. Pull his wrist toward your right, which will cancel out his left hand, while you employing a left punch and elbow to his face

3. While maintaining the hold on his right wrist, extend your left arm and employ a outward handsword to the left side of his neck

4. Release his wrist to employ a right handsword to the left side of his neck as the left hand grabs the right side of his head

5. Apply a neck wrench, counter clockwise, to throw him on his back to the left of you

6. Strike his throat with a left hand sword

7. Strike his groin with a left hammerfist

I was saving this technique for rank testing but thought I might as well share it here. Does anyone have any advice or comments they would like to offer?

6.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf

3. While maintaining the hold on his right wrist, extend your left arm and employ a outward handsword to the left side of his neck

4. Release his wrist to employ a right handsword to the left side of his neck as the left hand grabs the right side of his head

5. Apply a neck wrench, counter clockwise, to throw him on his back to the left of you

I am not a kenpoka, but I wonder if you can get enough power in 3 and 4 from your back to make it worthwhile, and if 5 isn't very dependent on his position? I've wrestled and recently started BJJ and cranking the neck isn't nearly as easy as it seems unless you loosen them up first. As always, it's hard to know if we're envisioning the same technique or not--I assume you mean he's mounted you but his back is largely upright?

The BJJ people would point out that every time your arm goes up while he's in the mount you're essentially submitting yourself by giving him your arm for te arm bar, but I think it's reasonable to assume the average street thug won't know that technique.

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by arnisador
But I think it's reasonable to assume the average street thug won't know that technique.

 

[Kenpo Wolf]

Originally posted by arnisador



I am not a kenpoka, but I wonder if you can get enough power in 3 and 4 from your back to make it worthwhile,


and if 5 isn't very dependent on his position? I've wrestled and recently started BJJ and cranking the neck isn't nearly as easy as it seems unless you loosen them up first. As always, it's hard to know if we're envisioning the same technique or not--I assume you mean he's mounted you but his back is largely upright?


The BJJ people would point out that every time your arm goes up while he's in the mount you're essentially submitting yourself by giving him your arm for te arm bar, but I think it's reasonable to assume the average street thug won't know that technique.

Thanks for the comments, Arnisador. As for the first and second comment, the opponents upper body is being pulled toward the right which will render his right hand nearly useless as well as give the let hand more room to 'travel'. This will add more power to the left punch and elbow.

As for the second comments, the sword hands would do a great job to loosen up the opponent by screwing with his nner ear, rendering him dizzy.

As I said before, this technique is entirely theoritical with no street application as of yet

 

[Blindside]

Hi KenpoWolf,

Here is some thoughts on your ground defense.

1) As you grab with your right and pull his arm across your body the opponent will probably collapse his elbow into your face, anchoring himself from losing position and giving you a painful shot in th process.

2) If you do manage to pull his arm across enough to counter his left arm, then you have pulled your opponent down onto yourself, probably smothering your attempts to get a punch in, also you really don't have any upper body torque to generate power for an elbow shot, you might want to go for an eyeshot/rip here. If you do manage to counter the left hand, the opponent will probably shift to side-control rather than to give his balance to you.

Just some initial thoughts,

Lamont

 

[Goldendragon7]

I dont think I clearly see this action........

 

[Blindside]

Ah, which action???

Lamont

 

[Goldendragon7]

I dont think the hand would be in the way..... would it.

 

[Blindside]

Who's hand? I think this is one of those things that is soooo much easier to show than to explain. :shrug:

I didn't really get that far in the tech, but I have done a neck wrench from mount, and it does work. I use both hands though, one hand grabbing the persons hair and the other levering under the chin. Training partners don't really like it since they don't get to gouge you in the eye in return, and if I did it in a BJJ class I would get armbarred all night long.

Lamont

 

[Kempojujutsu]

The system of Kempojujutsu I teach we have alot of ground work. You better know what to do. Things to do for different type of attacks from the mount.
1. the basic mount- the bridge and roll (umpa) also could do the knee push.
2. mount with a arm around head. Drive your head to the ground. Don't let him lift your head up. Now you have his arm trap, hook his foot and bridge and roll.
3. mount with forearm choke. Take hand and push behind his elbow across your body. Trap his elbow with the side of your head. Now work the knee push. roll out to the side. get the rear mount.
4. Mount with a heavy person. I have done this one before. My training partner is 285, me around 200. So it is not easy moving him around. So sometimes I will give him a arm to try to submit. Once he goes for it, I will counter it, so I don't get armbarred. This also gets me out of the mount.
5. Mount with punches. You can buck upwards and drive your knee into his back. This will throw him off balance. Trap an arm and bridge and roll.
One thing we do is when sparring it is from all ranges including the ground. It is very important you can spar from the ground also. To many people only spar stand-up style.
Bob :asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Blindside
Who's hand? I think this is one of those things that is soooo much easier to show than to explain. :shrug:

Some things are just tough to do on the web.... lol:rofl:
:asian:

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

quote: Kenpo Yahoo
"I don't know of any specific approach, at least by American Kenpo, to address the ground situation. Now admittedly there is a lot I don't know about kenpo, so I'm curious as to how everyone else approaches the idea of ground fighting or being stuck on your back. "


quote: GD-7
Exactly, you may not have been exposed to other areas of AK as of yet, but don't discount that fact that it may be there.

Well I'm confused, are you saying that it may be there, or that it is there?

The whole reason I started this thread was to see if anyone knew how to use their kenpo on the ground. Everyone's view seems to be that if you ended up on the ground then you really messed up, but so far I'm not sure anyone has tried to remedy the situation. Most of the replies have been from people who have trained with some ground curriculum outside of kenpo.
So if AK does teach you to deal with an opponent on the ground, how come no one knows how to do it.

Admittedly, I have very little experience with BJJ, but what I have seen has been rather powerful. It's powerful in the sense that it offers the greatest number of options to it's practitioner. So far I haven't seen kenpo offer much in the way of groundfighting, it's for the most part ignored all together. The only reason I started researching it, was because I was asked to be a volunteer for one of the ground techniques at an AKKI camp. In doing so I was able to feel first hand the effectiveness of an experienced ground game. It was the first time I have seen something like that in kenpo. It seems, to me at least, that the ground curriculum the AKKI is developing is a mixture of wrestling, BJJ, and good ole AK, but it is a mixture non-the-less. If kenpo has the answers, then please point me in the right direction. I would love to learn more about my art.

Respectfully.

Standard Disclaimer: I don't speak for Mr. Mills or the AKKI. All stupidity is, unfortunately, my own. :shrug:

 

[Blindside]

I'm one of the guys who went to BJJ to get my ground skills, and I don't regret a minute of it. I'm not a good BJJ player by any means, I'm ranked as a fully certified well worn white belt. But that year in BJJ gave me better ground skills than most kenpo blackbelts that I have met.

I have heard several people say that "its in kenpo" and I guess that may be, but if only 1% of the kenpo blackbelts have it, it really doesn't qualify as being "in the system." To me a black belt should have at least good basic skills in every range, ground to projectile, and sometimes I think kenpo misses the boat on that.

Lamont

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo

The title pretty much says it all, but I'll explain a little further for those who might be a little confused. What would you do if you were in some situation and suddenly found yourself on your back (whether you stumbled or got pushed, that's not the point). I hear all the time that kenpo has a solution for everything even groundfighting.

Now before anyone gets suspicious about my intentions let me explain. I love kenpo, but I've adopted some ideas and principles from outside kenpo to cover myself in this situation. I am however curious what you more experienced guys and gals would do in this situation. If you have a favorite standing technique that you've modified for the ground (and you don't mind sharing), throw us a bone. We'll try and narrow this by nixing the use of weapons at this point.

So what's your plan?

PARTING THE BEAR - (on your back mounted with wrists pinned to
ground)

1. Your opponent has mounted you after you have fallen or been pushed to the ground, and is pinning your wrists to the floor, right to left and left to right, with his shoulders and body weight over the wrists.

2. Place your feet flat on the floor close to your buttocks as a BRACE, and push upward with your arms (BRACING ANGLE). This is to get him to rock forward and place his weight over his hands in an attempt to hold you down. UNBALANCE - CONTACT MANIPULATION.

3. Execute a double knee strike to his tailbone to keep or force his weight forward. (CONTACT MANIPULATION) Then immediately as your feet re-plant and P.A.M. the floor, punch hard with your left hand along the floor above your head, and simultaneously with your right hand punch downward hard toward your waist. (CONTOURING) This will cause your opponent to “Part” his arms and his body weight and head will fall forward.)

4. Immediately reach up with your left hand and HOOK his shoulder or neck from his right side to force his arm to remain collapsed. (BRACE)

5. Strike his jaw with an inward heel-palm strike with your right hand, fingers pointed to your right forcing is head to your right. (CONTACT MANIPULATION) COMPOUND TORQUE his head and neck as you straighten your left leg placing it on top of his right leg to PIN his leg to the ground.

6. With his head TORQUED, right leg PINNED, you’re now ready to turn him over. Push your hips forcibly upward in a THRUSTING motion, as you slightly relieve torque pressure on his neck (CONTROL RELEASE) and time the hip thrust with the full re-application of the SNAPPING TORQUE on his head and neck. (He should now roll to your left.)

7. Roll with him and maintain your hand positions and pressure on his neck. (RIDING) When he is completely over, your right hand should be pushing his head into the ground (BRACING ANGLE) with a heel-palm directly on his MAXILLARY JAW HINGE. Force his legs up in the air as high as possible as you move up his body and place your body weight over your hands and arms. (BRACING)

8. Make sure his hips are off the ground, and utilize your left hand to SEIZE his carotid arteries by first pushing downward and then toward his head in a STRANGLE.

 

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Doc



PARTING THE BEAR - (on your back mounted with wrists pinned to
ground)

1. Your opponent has mounted you after you have fallen or been pushed to the ground, and is pinning your wrists to the floor, right to left and left to right, with his shoulders and body weight over the wrists.

2. Place your feet flat on the floor close to your buttocks as a BRACE, and push upward with your arms (BRACING ANGLE). This is to get him to rock forward and place his weight over his hands in an attempt to hold you down. UNBALANCE - CONTACT MANIPULATION.

3. Execute a double knee strike to his tailbone to keep or force his weight forward. (CONTACT MANIPULATION) Then immediately as your feet re-plant and P.A.M. the floor, punch hard with your left hand along the floor above your head, and simultaneously with your right hand punch downward hard toward your waist. (CONTOURING) This will cause your opponent to “Part” his arms and his body weight and head will fall forward.)

4. Immediately reach up with your left hand and HOOK his shoulder or neck from his right side to force his arm to remain collapsed. (BRACE)

5. Strike his jaw with an inward heel-palm strike with your right hand, fingers pointed to your right forcing is head to your right. (CONTACT MANIPULATION) COMPOUND TORQUE his head and neck as you straighten your left leg placing it on top of his right leg to PIN his leg to the ground.

6. With his head TORQUED, right leg PINNED, you’re now ready to turn him over. Push your hips forcibly upward in a THRUSTING motion, as you slightly relieve torque pressure on his neck (CONTROL RELEASE) and time the hip thrust with the full re-application of the SNAPPING TORQUE on his head and neck. (He should now roll to your left.)

7. Roll with him and maintain your hand positions and pressure on his neck. (RIDING) When he is completely over, your right hand should be pushing his head into the ground (BRACING ANGLE) with a heel-palm directly on his MAXILLARY JAW HINGE. Force his legs up in the air as high as possible as you move up his body and place your body weight over your hands and arms. (BRACING)

8. Make sure his hips are off the ground, and utilize your left hand to SEIZE his carotid arteries by first pushing downward and then toward his head in a STRANGLE.

Yeah babe :jediduel:

:asian: