Number 5 Strike.

[Kiwi]

Do you consider the straight #5 with a stick to be combative? I have been told it can work as a shot to the hip bones.

We tend to do the #5 with more blade oriented. We extend it like a fencers thrust and keep the uppercut as a separate strike.
It works well if you step back slightly and as your opponent tries to adjust to a closer fighting measure you hit them with the long thrust.

Kiwi

 

[The Mist]

Yes, if you are asking me. Hit the hip fold is fine. Most of the traditional targts in the front will work in self defense situation.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by The Mist

Yes, if you are asking me. Hit the hip fold is fine.

Are you thinking of this as a sword technique or a stick technique? I can see the off-balancing action of it with the stick.

 

[The Mist]

Hi, were you thinking of a reason not to use a blade? I was not making a distinction between knife, sword, stick, or open hand. I belive that Prof. would not have made a distinction and possibly said something along the lines of.... you must make the translation. //// now just me talking, did you ever punch somebody in the hip fold in practice? It has a somewhat drastic unbalancing effect like you suggested. Any tool would have a simular effect. Well actually a stick hurts a lot doing that even just practicing. Well, how do you feel about it?

 

[arnisador]

I as trying to visualize your technique. I can see how a stick strike there would have an unbalancig effect, but #6/10 is the only poke I regularly use with the stick (as opposed to the knife where they all feel good to me). I do use several variations of #6/10, including hooking down or hooking from the side.

 

[BRAM]

I mean no disrespect or agrument with the great responses..
You guys are really onto it..Range is important..range within actual usage and where is the bad guy...

IMHO..I think I'd let the student try thrusting with a sharp object @ a target that you can puncture..like a foam dummy...
to fell the diffrence between impact, stabbing-insertion, thrusting & tip ripping...
and to see the difference between using a stick...which is tip impact not insertion impact...

It goes back to the post that says the Professor wouldn't have made a distinction..
In the beginning he might not have..and he didn't...For he wanted us to understand motion..as one had to see that any motion coming down the centerline was a "5"...in grossest sense a thrust.be it palm down, palm sideways, palm up..or the tool being used...
and it could be high, medium or low on that center line..
In actuallity the tool does make a difference as to range, extension and usage..and he, the Professor DID make that distinction..
A knife is not a stick. a stick is not a sword. a sword is not a bolo...
a bolo is not a "rapier"...
well you get the idea....
and to make a translation of this sort is not just a mental "Oh OK I have another tool in my hand"...
One needs to learn the tools and their uses...
ROFL.. but that's what its about..


If the object of the thrust is to hit with the tip..then full extension at long range is OK.. such as fencing or a rapier..
If the object was to jam with the tip then full extension isn't called for and it probably won't work..such as a stick or barong..

some practice ideas?
try a moving focus mitt that needs to be poked @ long range compared to a body shield or a heavy bag..all three need diffferent thrusts!

The beauty of the art..again IMHO..is that its ambigous..its amorphic..it fits the need of the time or the tool..

thanks for letting me post..

bram

 

[arnisandyz]

some practice ideas?
try a moving focus mitt that needs to be poked @ long range compared to a body shield or a heavy bag..all three need diffferent thrusts!

bram [/B][/QUOTE]

This is good. Another variation of this would be letting him poke the focus mitt at long range while the pad holder does a counter strike after the poke (with a padded or light stick). This should let the person (thrusting) feel how far he can reach while still being in balance to get to a favorable position or do an evasive manuver.

 

[arnisandyz]

A knife is not a stick. a stick is not a sword. a sword is not a bolo...
a bolo is not a "rapier"...
well you get the idea....
and to make a translation of this sort is not just a mental "Oh OK I have another tool in my hand"...
One needs to learn the tools and their uses...

bram [/B][/QUOTE]

Another good point. The weight and feel of the tool has a heavy influence on how you fight with it. A bolo or barong would be way to tip heavy to do a thrust you might do with a rapier or even espada. A heavy stick makes you want to club more than light rattan, light rattan forces you to use more finnesse to deal with pressure (you don't have that heavy stick to hide behind.!). Long sticks make you feel like staying largo, short sticks medio/corto.
The really good practicioners I've seen who have beed doing it for a while adjust to the tool automatically, without really thinking about it.

 

[The Mist]

I was generalizing in the lack of distinction of the #5 strike. And Professor would have made the distinction you made in private or off to the side with more advanced students. So I totally agree with that. I have actually heard him in front of a general group say to translate the motions between weapons for yourself, once you understand the Basic Motion.
You are right Bram. But, you are teaching at a higher level then I was getting at in the post. I was interchanging ranges ... thinking in the back of my mind about espada y daga. That is where I was coming from. FYI. /////// Somebody else was visualizing the technique I was getting at... I was saying to poke to the top of the leg where it meets the abdomen. Only be vary careful, because it can be very dangerous even in practice.

 

[Pappy Geo]

Not much discussion on the footwork that goes with a #5 strike. I see the basics as a right foot/leg forward in an aggressive close, depending on the range, or possible right foot/leg back as a clearing line while countering with a#5 strike. Probably many other variations and thoughts?

Isn't the footwork the key for any numbered strike/counter/trap to work effectively?

 

[BRAM]

Pappy Geo:
hola my friend..
I think the footwork could be infinite..as in the flow..ROFL...
yes. one could be stepping off the line..retirada -retreating style, right or left,
largo range to counter thrust a #5 ...
one could be stepping full side step behind the base line... almost InQuartata...while counter thrusting a #5...
one could be crashing Panil. ..up the right traiangle to counter thrust a #5..
One could do the mirror image of the previous ...up left, counter with #5..
one could be retreating right triangle downward block to #5 counter thrust..
One could be either offensively or defensively stepping Right triangle female to right male enter with a thrust#5...
one could step left male enter with right...thrusting #5....
I think one could just zone left or right, thrust #5....

Is this what you meant?
Be safe..

Bram

 

[arnisandyz]

RE: footwork

Offensively: Work it into the male triangle, thrust in when stepping forward, retract when stepping out, it also works good to slash out after the thrust.

Defensively: Work it into the female triangle thrusting in while evading or parrying with live hand in either direction. Palm down going to the left, palm up to the right

A good drill is to keep the elbow in (not extending) while still hitting and retracting from the target. The only way to do this is with footwork. Imagine now adding in the extension! Like I said in my earlier post, its the legs that do the hitting!

 

[Cruentus]

Pappa Geo:

Isn't the footwork the key for any numbered strike/counter/trap to work effectively?

I'd say so!
:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Arnisador,


Two Questions?

Did you ever find the right serious of words for your description?

And did you ever decide to use the uppercut thrust first and then move to the straight thrust?

Curious minds would like to know.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

I'm still largely avoiding the uppercut for control reasons. I never found the right words, though I tried some that were suggested here, as well as bagwork, and things have been getting better. Whether it's cause-and-effect or just practice and time in, I don't know.