Oh, I agree.
Not effective?
- Thread starter Pinigseu1
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Oh, I agree.
First time poster, short time reader. I noticed in this thread that there was a mention that Michael Bisping wasn't the premier fighter out of the UK. Being a fairly avid MMA fan I have to ask just who these world beating british MMA fighters are and why they aren't in BAMMA or at all known to us?
I wouldn't be surprised to hear of quite of few fighters who were talented and "good" that I hadn't heard of before in the UK. But guys who would trump and put to shame the level of talent possessed by Michael Bisping and Paul Daley(despite his troubles making weight and controlling his temper) would quite frankly very much surprise me to hear of. At least thats the way it came off to read.
I wouldn't be surprised to hear of quite of few fighters who were talented and "good" that I hadn't heard of before in the UK. But guys who would trump and put to shame the level of talent possessed by Michael Bisping and Paul Daley(despite his troubles making weight and controlling his temper) would quite frankly very much surprise me to hear of. At least thats the way it came off to read.
I can reel off a big list of very good fighters, a good few better than Bisping and certainly better than Daley. There is no money in MMA in the UK, fighting and training will not earn you a living, not even cover your costs so good fighters are fighting pro rules but aren't pro fighters, they have day jobs and families to support, MMA here won't support a single guy even. Purses for the top shows are still in three figures not four. BAMMA is mostly a good show but doesn't pay very much, when it does pay, something that has been worrying us for a while now. Cagewarriors are looking for a good year with shows here and in four other countries.
Bisping had luck on his side, his father supported him and the TUF came at just the right time. He had to leave the UK however to make a career, most can't afford to do that. He's not particularly talented, he's a grafter though and has put in a lot of training to get where he is now but I would disgard his 'unbeaten in his first 10 or so fights' though, as I've said his opponents were hand picked to enhance his record.
Daley well he's Daley, he's good with his fists just pity it's not always against male fighters.
We have 15 UK fighters who are contracted with the UFC btw most are still in their days jobs for all that.
Warburton
Broughton
Bisping
Blackledge
Sass
Taylor
Etim
Scanlon
Hathaway
Pickett
Wilks
Winner
Pearson
Young
Hardy
The Brits are tough!! Just saw Pearson @ UFC 141. Good fighter and he seems like a nice kid extremely focused. He just moved down to 145. He wants to make a run @ Aldo. He is ambitious! He is going to have to improve allot!!!!!
Pearson is really solid, but I don't think he has a shot against Aldo (then again, I don't think much of anyone does, though I believe there's a possibility Mendes could take him down and outwrestle him for 5 rounds).
In my opinion, Pearson fits in nicely around the upper-middle of the pack. He'll do well against good-but-not-great competition, but will lose to the top guys. This is exactly what we saw at lightweight. He beat guys like Dennis Siver, Spencer Fisher and Aaron Riley, but got outstruck by Edson Barboza. At FW he'll beat guys like Assuncao and Palaszewski, but I could see him having problems with guys like Aldo, Mendes and maybe even someone like Hominick.
In my opinion, Pearson fits in nicely around the upper-middle of the pack. He'll do well against good-but-not-great competition, but will lose to the top guys. This is exactly what we saw at lightweight. He beat guys like Dennis Siver, Spencer Fisher and Aaron Riley, but got outstruck by Edson Barboza. At FW he'll beat guys like Assuncao and Palaszewski, but I could see him having problems with guys like Aldo, Mendes and maybe even someone like Hominick.
LOL at Ross being a nice kid, he's a Mackem brickie. He's a hard man.
He's a black belt in TKD and brown in Judo btw.
I don't dispute that Bisping started off on fishy footing with those opponents, most of whom have losing records to this day. My question really had more to do with what he's become skill wise. He's borderline top ten in a fairly weak division, but still borderline top ten with a skillset that allows for him to beat other fighters who have him trumped in one or even two areas of the sport through footwork and crisp striking. My real question is if Bisping isn't the best fighter to come out of/still in the UK then who is? You alluded to there being far better fighters than Bisping and Daley(who despite the domestic stuff and weight issues would still be a top ten-ish fighter if he was still fighting other top ten fighters), but I can't for the life of me think of anyone to come out of the uk or who is still in the uk that, by and large, is a better fighter than Bisping or Daley.
Below are the fighters you listed and they're salaries in UFC fights for the year 2011 excluding Michael Bisping and Dan Hardy:
Curt Warburton: collected $12,000 for his win over Maciej Jewtuszko at UFC 127
Rob Broughton: got $12,000 for his two fights in the UFC this year
Tom Blackledge: $4,000 at UFC127
Paul Sass: I couldn't find any of his fight payouts
Paul Taylor: $36,000 against Gabe Ruediger
Terry Etim: $90,000 at UFC138(10k to show, 10k win bonus, 70k submission of the night award)
Mark Scanlon: $68,000 for his fight at UFC122(his most recent fight)
John Hathaway: $26,000 for his fight with Kris McCray at UFN24
Brad Pickett: $76,000 at UFC138 (including $70,000 fight of the night bonus)
James Wilks: $30,000 at UFC115(For some reason I can't find any payouts for UFC120)
Andre Winner: $14,000 at UFC132
Ross Pearson: $40,000 at UFC127,
Jason Young: $6,000 at UFC131, $6,000 at UFC138
Paul Kelly: $19,000 for his fight with Donald Cerrone
So looking at these I'm having a hard time seeing how these guys are still holding regular jobs to be honest. You can absolutely live on $19,000 a year in america depending on the area. I'm sure the conversion rates apply and whatnot but if these guys aren't full time fighters then they aren't paying huge amounts of money for full time training camps. There's no reason these guys can't train and fight full time making the kind of money they are making aside from maybe Jason Young, Tom Blackledge, Rob Broughten, and Curt Warburton who, incidentally, aren't very good to begin with.
Going back to my original question who are these mystery fighters in the UK alluded to in the earlier portions of this thread? If they are around why haven't we heard about them yet? I have heard that when the UFC does shows in the UK that the venue often picks most of the undercard with local fighters. So why aren't they picking the best fighters if indeed they aren't already?
You may be able to live on $19000 in America but that equates to £12000 here before tax and you can't live on that here. On most of those kinds of earning tax is high. At those rates the tax is 40-50% plus American taxes have to be paid on that. How often are they fighting? Terry has had 9 fights on UFC in four years, his starting pay was low. $90,000 is £58000 of which he will get about half, add the same from the bonuses, and that's about £40,000 if he's lucky for the one fight he's had this year. He has to train in America as well as support himself here. The guys don't live in America, they live here only going over when there's a fight. To train to the standard the UFC requires means training every day for several hours, the amount of times they fight doesn't support that.
Paul Kelly got under £4000 for his fight with Donald Cerrone, take off tax and he would be left with about £2500 after UK tax, depends how much US tax he has to pay. He fought once this year. He can hardly train full time on that. I remember Ian Freeman being paid £10000 for a UFC fight in the States a few years back, by the time he'd paid his flights, his training camp and his keep plus his expenses here as Angie and his children didn't travel to the States. He had nothing left after taxes on top. The publicity and prestige were about all he had to show for it.
I'm not sure what you mean about the mystery fighters, the UFC picks fighters that are suitable for them not necessarily the best fighters in any country, Lesner surely is proof of that, they pick who sells not who is the best.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
$19k would be pretty difficult to live on here, depending upon where. Maybe if you had some decent sponsors.
As for he UFC, what business sense does it make for them to not pick the best? Of course, marketability counts, but they do look for skill.
Sent using Tapatalk. Please ignore typos.
If you're single with no debt, then it could be done as long as you live modestly. But I think you hit the nail on the head with sponsorships. Many fighters make more--sometimes far more--in sponsorship money than they do in show/win money.
The UFC is a business and sometimes they make business decisions. Lesnar being brought in and the Toney/Couture fight were certainly business decisions (though considering that Lesnar basically jumped into the deep waters with no prior MMA experience, I think he actually did pretty well). But no-name guys are certainly brought in because of their talent and proven ability.
Fighter Salary isn't the only source of income for these guys in this game. Sponsors often help pay for training and other finances to allow for a fighter to train more often.
Warburton : Body Active
Broughton: I couldn't find anything for Broughton having any sponsors
Blackledge: JST Nutrition
Sass: MMA Fightwear and Hayabusa, Fight! Magazine
Taylor: iStatus, Blowout Cards, Fight! Magazine, Hayabusa, TRX
Etim: Hayabusa, MMA Warehouse, TCB, Venum
Scanlon: I couldn't find anything
Hathaway: Blowout Cards, Hayabusa, Tapout
Pickett: Champion Nutrition, Jaco, MMA Overload, Tri Coasta,
Wilks: Hayabusa, Sprawl, Throwdown,
Winner: Tokyo Five
Pearson: Fight Shop, Tokyo Five, Hayabusa, Sprawl
Young: I couldn't find anything
Hardy: Headrush, MMA Authentics, Tapout, The Gun Store, Xyience
Kelly: MMA Authentics
This is what I'm referring to:
From post #111 on this thread
From post #117 on this thread
So, again, who are these mystery fighters who would put what Bisping has become in terms of skill to shame that are so far unknown, and unnamed? Furthermore, if they were truly cream of the crop why weren't they included on any of the UFC's forays into the UK when the venue chooses the undercard from local talent as a means to help boost attendance and whatnot?
He is a hard man in the ring. He seemed like a nice kid (compliment) out of it. Pretty humble dude. I did not know he was TKD.
All promotions UFC included will put on their cards fighters they know people will pay to see, we all do it. If we put a show on in Newcastle we will put local fighters on because they will sell tickets, there will be better fighters from other places but they won't sell tickets and that's the name of the game, selling tickets, no tickets mean a lot of debt. The UFC does this, when it comes here, it isn't the most popular show in the UK, it is hugely expensive to buy a ticket, picices are on average about a hundred pounds or more when tickets for other shows are a quarter of that. Plus there's travel and hotels to pay for, London is over six hours travel from me, more if you live in Scotland and even more from Northern Ireland. Remember how much our fuel costs ($2.16 per litre, 2.2 pints per litre, 8 pints to a gallon), it can easily cost you hundreds of pounds to watch UFC live. the only fighters that will be on the undercard on a UFC here are the local ones who as has already been pointed out aren't that good but because they are from the city the UFC has a show on people will come. Here no Londoner is going to travel to Manchester to watch Mancunians fight and vice versa and neither of these will travel to Liverpool or Newcastle ( look up the football culture and you will see how fierce the rivalry is) so the undercard isn't on the whole the most talented fighters it's the profitable ones. Of course if they are lucky they will get talent as well.
Sponsorship isn't worth a lot here, you're mostly given kit/supplements etc, MMA is such a low key sport here few know who the fighters are outside the MMA world so they won't get well known sponsors. No television or media work or ads.
There must be only literally a handful of Americans who actually think Bisping has any talent. Google Bisping and you will find pages of hate Bisping sites.
Warning foul langauge
http://www.talk-sports.net/mma/sucks.aspx/Michael_Bisping
Anyway, you wanted UK fighters.
http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...heavyweight-prospect-nick-headhunter-chapman/
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/5/10-Europeans-to-Watch-in-2011-29445
Another TKDist http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...potlight-the-uks-new-breakout-star-cory-tait/
http://www.mmabay.co.uk/2011/07/29/...oli-thompson-joins-the-wolfslair-mma-academy/
Just a couple to be going on with, it's gone midnight here and I'm off to bed.
Ross Pearson is a hard lad outside the cage too but he's a good un too.
Sponsorship isn't worth a lot here, you're mostly given kit/supplements etc, MMA is such a low key sport here few know who the fighters are outside the MMA world so they won't get well known sponsors. No television or media work or ads.
There must be only literally a handful of Americans who actually think Bisping has any talent. Google Bisping and you will find pages of hate Bisping sites.
Warning foul langauge
http://www.talk-sports.net/mma/sucks.aspx/Michael_Bisping
Anyway, you wanted UK fighters.
http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...heavyweight-prospect-nick-headhunter-chapman/
http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles/5/10-Europeans-to-Watch-in-2011-29445
Another TKDist http://mmaukkingston.wordpress.com/...potlight-the-uks-new-breakout-star-cory-tait/
http://www.mmabay.co.uk/2011/07/29/...oli-thompson-joins-the-wolfslair-mma-academy/
Just a couple to be going on with, it's gone midnight here and I'm off to bed.
Ross Pearson is a hard lad outside the cage too but he's a good un too.
In the last four years the UFC has gone to: Birmingham twice, London three times, Manchester twice, Dublin once, and Tyne and Wear once. So 9 trips in 4 years it's safe to say the UFC comes to the UK about twice a year give or take. How is it we didn't see or hear about the best talent? Ultimately it is talent/winning that is what sells since your not going to have people buying tickets to see 4-12 fighters despite whatever attitude/personality they might have.
The way you posted prior in this thread I was under the impression that better fighters than Michael Bisping existed all over the place but those of us who don't live in the UK just didn't know them. Nobody ever said Michael was well liked for his attitude, his fighting style, or as a human being. But the fact is when he fights a Dan Miller, a Yoshihiro Akiyama, a Chris Leben, even a Demian Maia he's going to be favored to win because of his skill set.
I'm seeing prospects. You posted about guys who were close to retiring and had already had lengthy runs in the sport that would make Bisping look bad. I would like to see some information on those fighters, or at least their names so I can do my own research if necessary.
I'm noticing a bit of a trend here in this thread in that you are quick to state your side and throw a yellow card at anyone you think doesn't know something, but I have asked you three different times now just who these phantom uk fighters who are products of the UK MMA scene that are better than Michael Bisping. You have yet to show me anything aside from money issues, taxes, michael bisping hateblogs, and prospects.
I like to think it would be fair to just walk away from this since your not bringing anything to the table that supports what you were saying earlier in the thread. I certainly hope this has all been lost in translation, though, and that you can really provide something more substantial.
Yellow card? nonsense, don't you know how to have a lively discussion? show you what? I have just posted up some promising fighters, are they close to retiring? I think not. I think you have confused something along the way.
so tell me what's your knowledge of UK MMA?
Now your trying to be obtuse. I quoted the posts and portions therein that I was referring to. You know, the one where you specifically wrote "I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you."
*Obviously I didn't make that clear enough with it's own specific quote bubble before, my bad. I took the liberty of making it impossible to miss this time around. So for the very last time could you perhaps provide some kind of information as to whom the above mentioned fighters are close to retiring and so clearly better than he is(he being Michael Bisping)? That's all I've wanted to know since I entered this thread and it's taken now a total of five posts, every single one of which has included a request for the identities of those fighters. So far the only names I've gotten out of you are ones already in the UFC, and prospects. Neither of which fits the above criteria.
*Obviously I didn't make that clear enough with it's own specific quote bubble before, my bad. I took the liberty of making it impossible to miss this time around. So for the very last time could you perhaps provide some kind of information as to whom the above mentioned fighters are close to retiring and so clearly better than he is(he being Michael Bisping)? That's all I've wanted to know since I entered this thread and it's taken now a total of five posts, every single one of which has included a request for the identities of those fighters. So far the only names I've gotten out of you are ones already in the UFC, and prospects. Neither of which fits the above criteria.
Ah I see what you've done. That sentence refers to two sets of people. 'we have so many more fighters than that now (this is the current fighters) they've (meaning the list of fighters listed by the poster I was answering) been going a while now and are close to retiring'. There was a list put of of UK fighters, not by me, who I said are close to retiring and that we have many more fighters now. The poster I was answering understood because he said he thought that they weren't close to retiring. I'm sorry if you misunderstood my sentence, it was not done deliberately.
Question from SFX "Furthermore, explain to me why it is that fighters in orgs other than the UFC are all wanting to get UFC contracts, but you never see anyone in the UFC clamoring to go to another organization. There are a lot of solid UK fighters in the UFC. Bisping, Ross Pearson, John Hathaway, Terry Etim and Dan Hardy to name a few. All they want in their careers is to win and hold onto their UFC contracts. You hear fighters in other organizations all the time saying they want to get into the UFC; you never hear the opposite."
Answer from me..."I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping ........"
Answer from SFX showing he understood what I was talking about " Every fighter that I mentioned is actively employed by the UFC, actively fighting, actively winning, and should still have several years ahead of them."
We disagreed about the fighters but this was the conversation we were having. You took it out of context and read it as something else.
Answer from me..."I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping ........"
Answer from SFX showing he understood what I was talking about " Every fighter that I mentioned is actively employed by the UFC, actively fighting, actively winning, and should still have several years ahead of them."
We disagreed about the fighters but this was the conversation we were having. You took it out of context and read it as something else.
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