Not effective?

[SPX]

No, a lot of very good fighters go to Japan, equally good money and prestige in a country knowledgable and respectful of martial arts. Japanese comps are the Michelin starred places of MMA, the UFC is the McDonalds, makes a lot money, well known and is popular but not the best.

Japanese MMA is dying at a rapid rate. PRIDE died in '07. Sengoku is dead. DREAM is suffering from so much trouble that many fighters are complaining that they haven't been paid for fights that took place a year ago. (Gary Goodrich and Sakuraba to name just two.)

Look at Shinya Aoki. He's been dominating the Japanese lightweight scene for years, and as soon as he came to the US, he got brutally destroyed by Gilbert Melendez. Now he's stuck back in Japan fighting sub-par competition like Rich Clementi and Rob McCullough because all the best guys are in the UFC.

Or take the case of Jorge Santiago. He was the last Sengoku MW champ. He got picked up by the UFC after Sengoku folded and he's had two fights so far . . . both losses to guys who aren't even in the title picture.

The list goes on. . . Sandro, Omigawa, Takaya, Zaromskis, Hioki, Yamamoto. . . All guys who were top fighters (most of them title holders) who have struggled BADLY in the US.

You seem to have a bias against the UFC, which is certainly your right. But to say that either the best money or the best talent is in Japan (or anywhere else for that matter) is simply not an objective fact. The UFC pays well, they pay reliably, and they also have far more top ranked fighters in any division than any other organization in the world.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm using kickboxing as a general term. Sanshou is a form of kickboxing, but the fighters the style produces don't really look like Muay Thai guys in the ring. TKD can be the same way, having a kickboxing focus, but producing fighters with a different flavor because the style and techniques are different.

I think it really comes down to the ruleset in sparring. Change the rules to allow head punches and leg kicks and use tkd and the problem is solved. Most tkdists I know who are 'effective' train at schools where they mix up the ruleset a bit. You dont necessarilly need a 'kickboxing focus'. Where I train there is no points sparring and the only objective is to knock your opponent down as quickly as possible, we still do tkd but dont spar under the WTF ruleset and you'd be amazed the difference that makes. Ive said for ages, the only problem with a lot of tkd schools is the ruleset they spar under. Nothing else has to change, its a great art with powerful kicks, punches and great footwork and reflexes and if you dont confine it to such a strict ruleset you have a really good fighting system.

 

[SPX]

It cant be all that bad over there surely. There are many tkd school owners here on martial talk who seem to run great schools teaching the 'real stuff'. I would hope it hasnt got so bad there that with a little shopping around you couldnt find a good school. It seems from what I read here that the problem is largely an American one, because posters from other places dont seem to have the same concerns. A friend of my wife's learned tkd in the UK, and he's a very good martial artist and he tells me there are many good tkd schools over there also.

There are good schools no doubt. I just don't think there are a lot of good ITF schools in Utah. I've talked to a few instructors and explained to them what I'm looking for and they have said that they know of instructors who run schools like that, but that I would need to look out of state.

There's a WTF school here that might be incredible for all I know, but I'm not overly interested in WTF-style sparring. And there are schools of other styles that are supposed to be good: a Wado-Ryu school, a Kenpo 5.0 school, a Kyokushin school. . . The Kyokushin school would probably be the way to go, but I don't like the no-face-punch rule and it's also over an hour away and I don't have a car.

Personally, I like the ITF competition rules because it's not stop point sparring, you can punch to the face, and it's enough contact to be worthwhile but not so much that a hospital trip is likely to be required.

 

[SPX]

I think it really comes down to the ruleset in sparring. Change the rules to allow head punches and leg kicks and use tkd and the problem is solved. Most tkdists I know who are 'effective' train at schools where they mix up the ruleset a bit. You dont necessarilly need a 'kickboxing focus'. Where I train there is no points sparring and the only objective is to knock your opponent down as quickly as possible, we still do tkd but dont spar under the WTF ruleset and you'd be amazed the difference that makes. Ive said for ages, the only problem with a lot of tkd schools is the ruleset they spar under. Nothing else has to change, its a great art with powerful kicks, punches and great footwork and reflexes and if you dont confine it to such a strict ruleset you have a really good fighting system.

I agree with everything you said. I just don't think that most schools are that way. Maybe they are where you are, but not worldwide. I've heard many people in England, for instance, decry the state of TKD over there just like people do here in the US.

But yeah, if a school does as you say, and is populated my motivated students, then it's likely to be awesome.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm using kickboxing as a general term. Sanshou is a form of kickboxing, but the fighters the style produces don't really look like Muay Thai guys in the ring. TKD can be the same way, having a kickboxing focus, but producing fighters with a different flavor because the style and techniques are different.

I guess I'm wondering tho, what is the role of the patterns? are they simply a requirement for promotion, a vehicle for demonstration or performance, an artistic endeavor, a vehicle for teaching useful martial techniques skills and concepts, or something else? It's just in how you had worded that prior comment that made me wonder how they are being used in TKD, from your experience.

 

[jks9199]

Every serious pro MMA fighter wants to fight in the UFC. Not only is the pay the best, but the competition is also the best in the world. It's no coincidence that the champs of a lot of smaller organizations will come to the UFC and end up being mid-level fighters or worse. It's just on another level.

No, a lot of very good fighters go to Japan, equally good money and prestige in a country knowledgable and respectful of martial arts. Japanese comps are the Michelin starred places of MMA, the UFC is the McDonalds, makes a lot money, well known and is popular but not the best.

Nice answer, Tez. The UFC is the big dog, especially in the US. They have the market share -- but that doesn't mean they have the best fighters. Dana White runs the show pretty tight from all accounts, and if you don't play his game or he takes a dislike to you, or just may not be the market draw that someone else is, you may have a heck of a time getting fights, no matter how good you are. (In short, the same old games we've seen in boxing and many other sports-gone-entertainment.)

 

[msmitht]

Interesting topic and posts. I think that most people believe tkd to be the useless crap that they see in stripmalls across the us. There are good schools but you have to look hard. Most good wtf style competitors will not do mma because they are trying to make the national team(s). Mma requires training in boxing, muay thai( to block the leg kicks), wrestling and bjj. The game is too different for a pure tkd competitor to excell without serious cross training.
Mma guys will always bash us but many can not throw an effective kick at any range.

 

[SPX]

I guess I'm wondering tho, what is the role of the patterns? are they simply a requirement for promotion, a vehicle for demonstration or performance, an artistic endeavor, a vehicle for teaching useful martial techniques skills and concepts, or something else? It's just in how you had worded that prior comment that made me wonder how they are being used in TKD, from your experience.

The entire question of patterns is a can o' worms, in my opinion. And honestly, at this point I'm not sure what side of the debate I fall on.

They give you a chance to practice your techniques in a way that is not as mundane as doing the same punch or kick over and over. And I know there is at least one TKdist who is trying to do something similar with the TKD patterns that Iain Abernethy has done with the Karate patterns.

But on the other hand, I also know of a lot practitioners--instructors even--who want to get rid of them. They feel that the benefits of doing them don't match the amount of effort it takes to learn and perform them, and that more "realistic" drills would better serve the student.

Again, I'm still figuring out where I stand on this. But if nothing else, the performing of patterns is a cornerstone of traditional TKD, and they ARE a legitimate way of preserving and practicing techs, so if for those reasons alone I say keep them for now. It's hard to imagine TKD without patterns.

 

[SPX]

Nice answer, Tez. The UFC is the big dog, especially in the US. They have the market share -- but that doesn't mean they have the best fighters. Dana White runs the show pretty tight from all accounts, and if you don't play his game or he takes a dislike to you, or just may not be the market draw that someone else is, you may have a heck of a time getting fights, no matter how good you are. (In short, the same old games we've seen in boxing and many other sports-gone-entertainment.)

There's some truth to what you've said here. Obviously there are quality fighters outside of the UFC. Nate Marquardt actually just signed with BAMMA. And Paul Daley is a fine striker, even if his grappling abilities are underwhelming. Bellator has a lot of good guys, too.

But to say that "the best fighters go to Japan" or anything that even remotely insinuates that the UFC does not have 90% of the best mixed martial artists in the world under contract is simply false.

I write for a major national MMA publication and it's my job to analyze this industry every day. Furthermore, I am also a moderator of the MMA section of a sports gaming forum and a bettor myself. I am up to my neck in MMA pretty much all the time. Now I don't say this to toot my own horn; I say it to demonstrate a love and passion for the sport that transcends organizations or politics and that enables me to love the sport objectively and fairly.

I love the UFC, but I don't like everything they do. Some of their business practices are definitely shady. I decry the downfall of Japanese MMA, I had mixed emotions when Strikeforce was swallowed up by their competitor, I support Bellator, and I enjoy seeing the sport spread across the world. I'm in favor of many good MMA organizations and the competition that this will engender, but the facts are simply the facts. The UFC is where it's at right now. That doesn't mean that you can't PREFER to watch another organization, or PREFER certain fighters who are outside of the UFC, but the worldwide rankings are absolutely cluttered with UFC fighters and there's a reason for that. They're the best in the world and it's the premiere organization in the world.

It's really no different from how Japan loves baseball and has many good players, but the MLB has the very best.

 

[Tez3]

Interesting topic and posts. I think that most people believe tkd to be the useless crap that they see in stripmalls across the us. There are good schools but you have to look hard. Most good wtf style competitors will not do mma because they are trying to make the national team(s). Mma requires training in boxing, muay thai( to block the leg kicks), wrestling and bjj. The game is too different for a pure tkd competitor to excell without serious cross training.
Mma guys will always bash us but many can not throw an effective kick at any range.

Sigh, why do you do this? such generalistions simply aren't true. I know a great many people from MMA who can throw very effective kicks, I believe I showed you one already. It's not true either that we bash TKD, you do enough of that on your own.
MMA doesn't require training in boxing, MT 'to block the leg kicks' wrestling and BJJ, it's bloody mixed martial arts, that's karate, TKD, WC,Judo, Aikido..yes really... BJJ, and anything else thats martial arts, not so much boxing, here not so much wrestling.
Look up Mark Weir has the record for fastest KO in UFC, think he still holds it, it was a very nice kick that did it, oh and his core style is TKD.

If you are going to insult us please get your facts right.

 

[Tez3]

There's some truth to what you've said here. Obviously there are quality fighters outside of the UFC. Nate Marquardt actually just signed with BAMMA. And Paul Daley is a fine striker, even if his grappling abilities are underwhelming. Bellator has a lot of good guys, too.

But to say that "the best fighters go to Japan" or anything that even remotely insinuates that the UFC does not have 90% of the best mixed martial artists in the world under contract is simply false.

I write for a major national MMA publication and it's my job to analyze this industry every day. Furthermore, I am also a moderator of the MMA section of a sports gaming forum and a bettor myself. I am up to my neck in MMA pretty much all the time. Now I don't say this to toot my own horn; I say it to demonstrate a love and passion for the sport that transcends organizations or politics and that enables me to love the sport objectively and fairly.

I love the UFC, but I don't like everything they do. Some of their business practices are definitely shady. I decry the downfall of Japanese MMA, I had mixed emotions when Strikeforce was swallowed up by their competitor, I support Bellator, and I enjoy seeing the sport spread across the world. I'm in favor of many good MMA organizations and the competition that this will engender, but the facts are simply the facts. The UFC is where it's at right now. That doesn't mean that you can't PREFER to watch another organization, or PREFER certain fighters who are outside of the UFC, but the worldwide rankings are absolutely cluttered with UFC fighters and there's a reason for that. They're the best in the world and it's the premiere organization in the world.

It's really no different from how Japan loves baseball and has many good players, but the MLB has the very best.

What do you know about UK MMA? Paul Daley isn't anything special, never has been and I've seen him from the start when he was a kid. I'm afraid he's known for punching here but not male fighters. He's there because we made it clear he's not wanted here.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I guess I'm wondering tho, what is the role of the patterns? are they simply a requirement for promotion, a vehicle for demonstration or performance, an artistic endeavor, a vehicle for teaching useful martial techniques skills and concepts, or something else? It's just in how you had worded that prior comment that made me wonder how they are being used in TKD, from your experience.

The role of patterns?

Deserves it's own thread at least. Perhaps it's own volume would be better?

 

[SPX]

What do you know about UK MMA? Paul Daley isn't anything special, never has been and I've seen him from the start when he was a kid. I'm afraid he's known for punching here but not male fighters. He's there because we made it clear he's not wanted here.

I have a general knowledge of UK MMA. It's a fairly large market for the sport, but not one of the major markets (the US, Japan, and Brazil . . . the last because of the number of excellent fighters the country produces . . . not because they have any major organizations).

Look, man. No one is saying the UK doesn't have good organizations or good fighters. If you say BAMMA or whoever is a good organization, I'll agree. If you say that the UK has many good fighters, I'll say right on. But the only reason that I can come up with for you not wanting to acknowledge that the UFC has the best fighters in the world is a sense of nationalism or, relatedly, anti-American sentiment.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But so far you've made a lot of statements that you haven't backed up with any sort of evidence. If you want to say that the best fighters go to Japan instead of to the UFC, then fine. But tell me who you feel these fighters are, don't just make a general statement. I've already explained why Japan does NOT have the best fighters, with examples.

Furthermore, explain to me why it is that fighters in orgs other than the UFC are all wanting to get UFC contracts, but you never see anyone in the UFC clamoring to go to another organization. There are a lot of solid UK fighters in the UFC. Bisping, Ross Pearson, John Hathaway, Terry Etim and Dan Hardy to name a few. All they want in their careers is to win and hold onto their UFC contracts. You hear fighters in other organizations all the time saying they want to get into the UFC; you never hear the opposite.

 

[SPX]

Back on the topic of traditional martial arts being effective, the problem is that there's way too much of this:

 

[Cyriacus]

Back on the topic of traditional martial arts being effective, the problem is that there's way too much of this:

Never show Me that again.
Please.
My Head Hurts.

 

[SPX]

Never show Me that again.
Please.
My Head Hurts.

LOL. Yeah, I know, right?

 

[Tez3]

I have a general knowledge of UK MMA. It's a fairly large market for the sport, but not one of the major markets (the US, Japan, and Brazil . . . the last because of the number of excellent fighters the country produces . . . not because they have any major organizations).

markets? You see countries as markets, we see it as doing a sport we enjoy.

Look, man. No one is saying the UK doesn't have good organizations or good fighters. If you say BAMMA or whoever is a good organization, I'll agree. If you say that the UK has many good fighters, I'll say right on. But the only reason that I can come up with for you not wanting to acknowledge that the UFC has the best fighters in the world is a sense of nationalism or, relatedly, anti-American sentiment.

Oh come on, anti Americanism? I could say you are blinkered because you can see nothing but an American company. And don't call me man thank you.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But so far you've made a lot of statements that you haven't backed up with any sort of evidence. If you want to say that the best fighters go to Japan instead of to the UFC, then fine. But tell me who you feel these fighters are, don't just make a general statement. I've already explained why Japan does NOT have the best fighters, with examples.

I didn't say ALL the best fighters go to Japan, I said many do from here and Europe, Rosi Sexton and Paul McVeigh for two.

Furthermore, explain to me why it is that fighters in orgs other than the UFC are all wanting to get UFC contracts, but you never see anyone in the UFC clamoring to go to another organization. There are a lot of solid UK fighters in the UFC. Bisping, Ross Pearson, John Hathaway, Terry Etim and Dan Hardy to name a few. All they want in their careers is to win and hold onto their UFC contracts. You hear fighters in other organizations all the time saying they want to get into the UFC; you never hear the opposite.

I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you. You have been over here and heard that all fighters say they want to go to the UFC then? I think you only know what you've read about these fighters, sorry but I know them, I know the MMA scene here and if you want to come over and I will introduce you to it and you can see for yourself, until then I'd probably not post anymore guff up about another countries sport, if I were you.


As for patterns/kata I assume for what you wrote you don't actually know what they are for? You know nothing about Bunkai? As Earl Weiss says we could have hundreds of pages on kata, it's invaluable.

Who do you write for? Is it something we would know? What you are tending to do is to bash TMAs with MMA, the whole tone of the thread from your point of view was simply to point out how useless TKD is from your point of view.

 

[Buka]

MMA does not translate to Tae-kwon-do competition any more than Tae-kwon-do translates to MMA competition. Both have detailed rule sets. I'm not talking about self defense, or who would beat who in a street encounter, I couldn't care less. We're talking fighting sports here, and they are each an animal unto their own.

Anytime I bring someone into an MMA cage for the first time I ask them to lie down against the cage and have someone stronger than them pin them against the cage from the top position. I explain that it's a different game plan from here, with different principles, different breathing and different strategy (depending on time of round and other factors). MMA is a different sport than other Martial competitions. Is it any better? I don't think so, myself, I like all of them. It's just different.

I am a Karate man at my core. It's what I love best. But if you take a Karate man, MMA guy or wrestler, and put him in a boxing ring to compete in the sport of boxing (without boxing training on his resume) he'll be lost. It's just too specialized a sport. Same thing if you put a boxer into one of our competitions.

One thing someone pointed out to me a few months ago, that I find rather interesting - "MMM fighting allows more Karate techniques than any Karate competition ever would." I had never thought of it that way before. Kind of blew my mind.

 

[Tez3]

MMA does not translate to Tae-kwon-do competition any more than Tae-kwon-do translates to MMA competition. Both have detailed rule sets. I'm not talking about self defense, or who would beat who in a street encounter, I couldn't care less. We're talking fighting sports here, and they are each an animal unto their own.

Anytime I bring someone into an MMA cage for the first time I ask them to lie down against the cage and have someone stronger than them pin them against the cage from the top position. I explain that it's a different game plan from here, with different principles, different breathing and different strategy (depending on time of round and other factors). MMA is a different sport than other Martial competitions. Is it any better? I don't think so, myself, I like all of them. It's just different.

I am a Karate man at my core. It's what I love best. But if you take a Karate man, MMA guy or wrestler, and put him in a boxing ring to compete in the sport of boxing (without boxing training on his resume) he'll be lost. It's just too specialized a sport. Same thing if you put a boxer into one of our competitions.

One thing someone pointed out to me a few months ago, that I find rather interesting - "MMM fighting allows more Karate techniques than any Karate competition ever would." I had never thought of it that way before. Kind of blew my mind.

It certainly does! Damn good post!
I think what too many people are doing is thinking of each individual style separately, when they should be thinking of the style as being mixed in with other styles to produce the whole. To think of a style alone is to miss the point of MMA.


Think of it as making a smoothie in a blender, each ingredient is good on it's own, mix it with others it makes a great smoothie not a great single ingredient.

MMA is about mixing it up, melding styles together, taking what works for the fighter out of each style. It's not about MMA v TKD, it's about taking from TKD, if you train in it, what works best for you.

 

[SPX]

I think you are behind the times here, we have so many more fighters that now, they've been going a while now and are close to retiring apart from Bisping and you think he's good, lord help you.

Bisping is good. He's not great, but he's very solid, a top 10 MW.

You have been over here and heard that all fighters say they want to go to the UFC then?

Yeah, obviously what I meant is that I've interviewed every single British fighter in existence.

The bottom line is that any fighter who's interested in reaching the pinnacle of the MMA world--to fight the best competition and make the most money--wants into the UFC. There may be cases of pros who do NOT want to get into the UFC. This could happen for a number of reasons--they enjoy being a big fish in a small pond, they enjoy fighting but don't want to it as a full-time career, etc. But I'm speaking of the guys who want to make it to the top.

. . . until then I'd probably not post anymore guff up about another countries sport, if I were you.

Uh oh.

As for patterns/kata I assume for what you wrote you don't actually know what they are for? You know nothing about Bunkai? As Earl Weiss says we could have hundreds of pages on kata, it's invaluable.

I know all about bunkai, but that doesn't mean that time spent on patterns might not be better spent doing something else. I think that other striking arts, like muay Thai and other forms of kickboxing that do no patterns, have at least proven that you can be a devastating fighter without ever doing a pattern, but instead funneling that time and energy into other exercises. There are so many hours in a day, after all.

As I said in an earlier post, I'm still debating personally what I feel the value of patterns is. If you want to be a true believer and never questioning anything about your art, then that's your right.

Who do you write for? Is it something we would know?

These guys (I think you have an Ultimate MMA mag in the UK too . . . different magazine):

And occasionally I have also written for Black Belt, such as in this issue, where I wrote an article about a documentarian who makes cool traditional martial arts documentaries shot on location in China and Japan:

What you are tending to do is to bash TMAs with MMA, the whole tone of the thread from your point of view was simply to point out how useless TKD is from your point of view.

I'll admit that it touches a nerve whenever anyone acts like there aren't some issues with TKD because, unless it's going to be trained purely as a sport, there ARE problems.

But I never said that TKD was useless. Not once did I say that. What I've said is that it's a great art--in fact, I said "I love TKD" in at least one post--but it has to be trained properly. Do you not agree?