No style

[skribs]

hmm

1) lots of people who have never had a lession are quite adapt at fighting
2) see above

3) it rather depends on which style they are learning, if we are talking about actual fighting there opponent is far more likely to injure them than them injuring themselves
4) if an attack is imminent you have passed the opportunity to de_escerlate

5 &6 )ots of tma stances are very restrictive, as then empersise stability rather than an ability to move fast in 360 degrees. what you dont want to be in is a position were you planted and flat fooyms with you feet a a couple of feet apart. being in something resembling a boxers foot position , is much better

7)your main advantage when being attacked is catching your attacker by surprise, they really are not expecting a vicious assault from you or they most likely wouldn't be attacking in the first place, giving no warning of your state of mind until they are in range is a major advantage. going into a exaggerate stance only serves to warning them to be careful

1. Then what advice you give those people might not matter so much. What advice you give someone with less natural talent will.
2. .
3. If half of my beginners move "naturally" instead of following our footwork, they'll either stand still, or they'll backpedal and trip themselves. Even if that doesn't injure them, falling over puts them in a much more position to be hurt by their opponent than if you actually train them in the footwork of your style.
4. If you have the opportunity to enter a fighting stance, you have not yet passed that opportunity
5. If you're immobile in those stances, then your footwork is wrong
6. .
7. Re-read the first half of my point

 

[jobo]

1. Then what advice you give those people might not matter so much. What advice you give someone with less natural talent will.
2. .
3. If half of my beginners move "naturally" instead of following our footwork, they'll either stand still, or they'll backpedal and trip themselves. Even if that doesn't injure them, falling over puts them in a much more position to be hurt by their opponent than if you actually train them in the footwork of your style.
4. If you have the opportunity to enter a fighting stance, you have not yet passed that opportunity
5. If you're immobile in those stances, then your footwork is wrong
6. .
7. Re-read the first half of my point

I haven't said they should not practice footwork, i've said they shouldn't start their foot work from a planted stance that is not conducive fast unidirectional movement, as there is clearly a continuum of how conducive various stances are, then if its not as good as a boxers stance then its not the best and some tma stances are frankly terrible.

your clearly using your own definition of imminent. it may take you at most a single second to adopted a stance, your not going to de escalate a fight if the attack is a second away from happening, if an attacker is desending on you with ill intent, you dont need to do anything till they are less than a second away from contact

we practice a fighting stance with your feet slightly off set and your hands up in surrender at ear height, its a few tenths of a second from that t a boxing stance and you have full movement capabilities, with out giving any warning to your attacker of your intent to hurt him till he is in range and possibly just as importantly any witness will note or cctv will clearly show you were not the aggressor

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I thin

A lot of styles have that. I feel like you’re trying to make a point, but I’m missing it.

In another forum, I have asked if someone can describe the difference between a

- Taiji front kick. and
- Karate front kick.

Nobody will be able to answer my question in the past 20 years.

You can teach a wrist lock to your student. Your student won't be able to know whether it may come from Aikido, Hapkido, eagle claw, long fist, or ...

You can also teach a front kick, your student won't be able to know whether it may come from Karate, TKD, long fist, preying mantis, ...

If you have trained both Karate and TKD. When you kick on your heavy bag, do you kick the Karate way, or the TKD way?

 

[skribs]

You can teach a wrist lock to your student. Your student won't be able to know whether it may come from Aikido, Hapkido, eagle claw, long fist, or ...

You can also teach a front kick, your student won't be able to know whether it may come from Karate, TKD, long fist, preying mantis, ...

If you have trained both Karate and TKD. When you kick on your heavy bag, do you kick the Karate way, or the TKD way?

If you pick one over the other, you're making a style choice. If you just use both when you feel like it, that is also a style choice.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you pick one over the other, you're making a style choice. If you just use both when you feel like it, that is also a style choice.

What if both are identical?

Can you tell which style did this lock come from? If an Aikido guy, a Hapkido guy, or a Kung Fu guy all do the same lock, the term style no longer have meaning.

Can we defind a set of joint locking skill (~ 40) that can be taught by all Aikido teachers, all Hapkido teachers, all eagle claw teachers, all long fist teachers, ...

 

[skribs]

Can you tell which style did this lock come from? If an Aikido guy, a Hapkido guy, or a Kung Fu guy all do the same lock, the term style no longer have meaning.

Can we defind a set of joint locking skill (~ 40) that can be taught by Aikido teacher, Hapkido teacher, eagle claw teacher, long fist teacher, ...

The guy is falling down before the lock is applied. Obviously it's Aikido.

Kidding aside, there is a lot of overlap between many styles. That doesn't mean there aren't styles. It just means they overlap.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

there is a lot of overlap between many styles. That doesn't mean there aren't styles. It just means they overlap.

Do we agree that the section "e" can be called as "no style"?

 

[skribs]

@Kung Fu Wang No. Because you only have 3 styles listed. If you list all styles, you'll find one where E isn't a factor. Even if you find something so ubiquitous that it is consistent in all martial arts, that doesn't mean there's no style. It means for that particular item, there isn't a dependency on style.

 

[Gweilo]

Every sentence fragment in this is wrong.

1. How do people learn if they're not taught?
2. How do people learn without a style? You can't learn everything at once. You have to pick something to start with.
3. Beginners should limit their movement to the style, because if they don't follow the rules of the style, they're more likely to hurt themselves. Once you understand the basics, you are ready to move on to other things.
4. If you get into a situation where self-defense is imminent, you should be more worried about avoidance and de-escalation than fighting
5. No stance is more limiting on choice of defense
6. A good fighting stance doesn't restrict your movement
7. Your style may not have you enter a fighting stance until you are attacked. If a fight is imminent and you are amped up to fight, your attacker will know what you are going to do anyway

To tell a beginner not to use a stance, and just move how they feel like, is probably among the worst pieces of advice I think I've ever seen on this forum.

Like I said before, I never stated do not teach, let me ask you this...
Why in tkd was Kyorugi introduced as an Olympic style TKD?
A less restrictive free flowing, less formal, encouraging fight interaction, learning to deal with fear, more dynamic to watch.

Just because your current understanding of teaching basics is different to mine, does not mean there is no other choice, yes a beginner needs to learn to move, strike, counter, I agree entirely, but to beleive there is no alternative to training than what you currently understand.
An example, a plant, when can hybridize them, and make new varieties, we can nurture them, and train them to look like a fantastic looking bonsai tree. But they still grow naturally in the wild. The basics of tkd, are vastly different from the basics in boxing, but ithey both can be used as self defense or fighting, someone who has never been trained in any art can still fight.
I have done the traditional art twice, there are other methods not saying it's better than traditional, just different, and wether you like it, agree with it, or dis like it. It's still there.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It means for that particular item, there isn't a dependency on style.

For the following basic MA skills, I can't find any different way to do it:

- front kick,
- jab,
- foot sweep,
- hip throw,
- ...

 

[Martial D]

Although I understand your point, my emphasis is on Mastery of a particular art. Similar to learning the piano: yes if I only practice the piano, I won't be good at the guitar. But I'll be damn good at the piano.

I'm not necessarily sure what you mean by not protecting the centre outside in, the way I learned allows me to do both, and I train both.

No, we are all playing the piano.(our body)

Being confined to a style is more like refusing to learn to play anything but Mozart (or maybe Nickelback, depending on what style we are talking about here) on your piano.

 

[pdg]

No, we are all playing the piano.(our body)

Being confined to a style is more like refusing to learn to play anything but Mozart (or maybe Nickelback, depending on what style we are talking about here) on your piano.

If you don't like Mozart (or Nickelback) what would be the benefit in learning to play in that style?

 

[pdg]

If you don't like Mozart (or Nickelback) what would be the benefit in learning to play in that style?

Or - if you like a certain style and it fits what you want to play, what's the point in forcing yourself out of it?

 

[Flying Crane]

For the following basic MA skills, I can't find any different way to do it:

- front kick,
- jab,
- foot sweep,
- hip throw,
- ...

Taking just the front kick as an example, there are many different ways to do it. Does it snap out and back, or thrust, or swing upward with a straight leg? What is the striking platform: heel, ball, instep, toes?

These are different front kicks. Different systems may favor one over the others. I just explained to you different ways to do it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In another forum, I have asked if someone can describe the difference between a

- Taiji front kick. and
- Karate front kick.

Nobody will be able to answer my question in the past 20 years.

You can teach a wrist lock to your student. Your student won't be able to know whether it may come from Aikido, Hapkido, eagle claw, long fist, or ...

You can also teach a front kick, your student won't be able to know whether it may come from Karate, TKD, long fist, preying mantis, ...

If you have trained both Karate and TKD. When you kick on your heavy bag, do you kick the Karate way, or the TKD way?

Not knowing the source of a technique doesn’t really have much to do with style, IMO. I incorporated a lot in my NGA that wasn’t part of what I learned as NGA. I still consider what I teach to be NGA. Why? Same basic principles, and I find the name familiar.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What if both are identical?

Can you tell which style did this lock come from? If an Aikido guy, a Hapkido guy, or a Kung Fu guy all do the same lock, the term style no longer have meaning.

Can we defind a set of joint locking skill (~ 40) that can be taught by all Aikido teachers, all Hapkido teachers, all eagle claw teachers, all long fist teachers, ...

One technique existing across styles doesn’t invalidate the concept of styles.

 

[wab25]

No, we are all playing the piano.(our body)

Being confined to a style is more like refusing to learn to play anything but Mozart (or maybe Nickelback, depending on what style we are talking about here) on your piano.

These two guys both play piano. If we look at their front kicks (c-note) or their wrist lock (g-note) or their punch (f-note)... they do them the same. The finger is placed on the key, the key is depressed, causing the hammer to strike the strings. However, the style these two pianists play in is entirely different... even though they are both dealing with the exact same set of techniques. They use the same techniques, done the same way, for different effect, depending on their style. But I guess once you know how to play every note, you are done... there is no longer any need for style, since you are just playing the same techniques?

Sorry, but learning the techniques and or the kata is only step one. It is a necessary step, an important step... but there is a lot more to it than just being able to do the techniques and being able to do them in order. Sadly, a lot of people stop there, and don't even realize the amount of stuff they are missing.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Or - if you like a certain style and it fits what you want to play, what's the point in forcing yourself out of it?

If you can do

- flying side kick,
- flying knee,
- tornado kick,
- spin hook kick,
- ...

but I can't. There is no way that I can accept that. If I can't do a certain technique, I may not know how to counter it.

 

[pdg]

If you can do

- flying side kick,
- flying knee,
- tornado kick,
- spin hook kick,
- ...

but I can't. There is no way that I can accept that. If I can't do a certain technique, I may not know how to counter it.

"May" being the operative word there.

You don't need to be able to perform a certain technique to be able to counter it effectively with a bit of flexibility in the counters you already know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You don't need to be able to perform a certain technique to be able to counter it effectively with a bit of flexibility in the counters you already know.

Can you counter a single leg if you can't apply single leg yourself?

You may know how to escape out of it, but you may not know how to take advantage on it. In order to be able to take advantage of your opponent's attack, you need to know the weakness of that technique.