No Smoking Laws

[Big Don]

The only thing more despicable is the Abusive Daddy State.

It makes you afraid in order to make you eager to give up your freedoms.

It makes you poor to enrich the wealthy and makes you disgustingly grateful for the privilege.

It makes you less safe, less secure, poorer and sicker and claims that that is "freedom".

It destroys whatever we hold in common in order to make its owners happy.

It believes that morality is a club to beat the little people with but an unnecessary encumbrance for the powerful.

It believes in the Market. But only as a way of keeping anyone who works for a living desperate and destitute. The rich and its corporate Masters get to shove both trotters in the public trough.

It tells you that women, the workers, the poor, the ill, the mad, the hungry, the naked and those who value civil liberties are "special interests". But trans national conglomerates, the fabulously wealthy, the recipients of its tax-fattened largesse and religious whack jobs who want to turn the country into a theocracy are "Real Americans" and "a community".

It keeps dildos out of vaginas on pain of twenty five years of hard prison time. But it fights tooth and nail to keep lead in toys and put it back into the air.

To the Abusive Daddy State you are a surplus unit of production. You have no rights. You are a nuisance and need to be kept under its heel on fear of imprisonment, torture and death.

That's Conservatism. That's large-L Libertarianism once you scratch off the shiny paint. That's Christian politics.

That is hell with the fire put out.

That is an amazingly bigoted post.

 

[Omar B]

Omar B says that you don't go to a crack house then complain about people using crack but what if the crack users come into your workplace, your child's nursery and school, doctors waiting rooms, sit on the bus next to you? would you have your childrens taught with the teacher having a fag stuck in her mouth? the nurse giving you medications puffing away? being served in the deli along with clouds of cigarette smoke? All these people have the right to smoke don't they?

Well crack's an illegal drug so I don't expect to see it in my workplace. Besides, I work from home so a crack smoker in my house would bother me.

I don't have a child so children are th least of my concern. I didn't chose that life and I don't expect to spend my life catering to parents when I've decided I don't want kids. Frankly kids bother the hell out of me.

I've eaten in delis, restaurants, diners filled with smoke and it didn't bother me. If you don't want your kids to be around smoke don't bring them to places where smokers are, you don't try to change the world to suit you at the expense of screwing with everyone else.

I will always be on the side of the business who wants to allow a legal activity within his own establishment. I don't subscribe to the government knowing better than I do on what's good for me. We all have a faculty of choice, if you don't wanna be around smokers don't go to a bar that allows smoking, you don't wanna have your kids around smoking then eat at Chuck E Cheese or some crap like that. And what's with every time a smoking thread kids come up, where are these parents so keen on bringing their kids to the bar?

No one is bound to go to the same bar or eating establishment, that's the great part about a capitalist economy, a myriad of choices!

 

[Tez3]

Well crack's an illegal drug so I don't expect to see it in my workplace. Besides, I work from home so a crack smoker in my house would bother me.

I don't have a child so children are th least of my concern. I didn't chose that life and I don't expect to spend my life catering to parents when I've decided I don't want kids. Frankly kids bother the hell out of me.

I've eaten in delis, restaurants, diners filled with smoke and it didn't bother me. If you don't want your kids to be around smoke don't bring them to places where smokers are, you don't try to change the world to suit you at the expense of screwing with everyone else.

I see. You only read the bits of a post that you want to. My post wasn't about children it was about the freedom to live without someone abusing you by blowing smoke into your face as you go about your everyday life. I shan't bother trying to put my opinion any further as obviously you can't debate a subject without becoming personal. The thread seems stuck on being in bars!

Tellne'rs post wasn't in the least bigoted, he was merely pointing out the problems you get with a certain type of government.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

That is an amazingly bigoted post.

I dunno.... I tend to see things much the same way at times.



I can tell when a heavy smoker is near. They stink. It's a very specific stink, made worse if what they are wearing happens to become wet. They smell nothing. It's like BO, you get used to your own and tune it out, but god forbid someone else has it.

The smell and other crap that comes from smoking is hell to remove from fabrics.
Special cleaners are needed to really remove it from walls, and carpets. Fabreeze just masks it for a little while.

We worry about carbon monoxide and buy costly detectors, then puff away at chemically enriched with toxin addictives. The tobacco in your cancer-stick has thousands of additives. Addictive, harmful, deadly.

http://www.tobaccofacts.org/tob_truth/whatsinsmoke.html

Here's some of em:
Toluene — Toluene is highly toxic. It is commonly used as an ingredient in paint thinner.
Benzo[a]pyrene — You'll find it in coal tar and cigarette smoke. It is a chemical likely to cause cancer in humans.
Arsenic — This deadly poison causes diarrhea, cramps, anemia, paralysis and malignant skin tumors. It's used in pesticides.
Acetone — It's one of the active ingredients in nail polish remover.
Lead — Lead poisoning stunts your growth, makes you vomit and damages your brain.
Formaldehyde — It causes cancer, and can damage your lungs, skin and digestive system. Embalmers use it to preserve dead bodies.
Cadmium — It causes damage to the liver, kidneys and brain, and stays in the body for years.
Ammonia — Scientists have discovered that ammonia lets you absorb more nicotine - keeping you hooked on smoking.
Benzene — It's found in pesticides and gasoline.

Who in their right mind would want to purposefully injest this crap?

Most of those, when you buy them off the shelf come with huge warnings, cautions and safety notices. They are required to be listed in most MSD books.

You have a product, purposefully engineered to be addictive, using toxins with known side effects....and people want to complain about laws restricting their use?

I want more anti-smoking laws. I want it banned, out right, or taxed to the rafters. Make a pack of poison sticks cost $45. Make a carton cast $500.
Make it a criminal offense to smoke in front of your children or expose them to tobacco smoke.

Child Services would roast you alive if you left your kids play in the store room at the nail parlor, or let them guzzle whiskey all night long, why should this be any different?



Won't happen though. Too many in congress in the pay of Big Tobacco.
Too much money in the industry period.


As for me, smoke free work space, and always will be.


I went to a bar once with friends. Was there 4-5 hours. I didn't drink anything.
Took a week for my eyes to stop burning and not be bloodshot.
4 washings to destink my clothes, and my jacket still has hints of it now.
The smoke was -that- thick in there. (Yay Toronto)

So, yeah, I'm very biased against the crap.

You want to smoke, go ahead, but don't do it by me. I'll share a meal, I'll share a ride, I'll even share a bed, but your toxic habbit is all yours my friend.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I dunno.... I tend to see things much the same way at times.



I can tell when a heavy smoker is near. They stink. It's a very specific stink, made worse if what they are wearing happens to become wet. They smell nothing. It's like BO, you get used to your own and tune it out, but god forbid someone else has it.

The smell and other crap that comes from smoking is hell to remove from fabrics.
Special cleaners are needed to really remove it from walls, and carpets. Fabreeze just masks it for a little while.

We worry about carbon monoxide and buy costly detectors, then puff away at chemically enriched with toxin addictives. The tobacco in your cancer-stick has thousands of additives. Addictive, harmful, deadly.

http://www.tobaccofacts.org/tob_truth/whatsinsmoke.html

Here's some of em:
Toluene — Toluene is highly toxic. It is commonly used as an ingredient in paint thinner.
Benzo[a]pyrene — You'll find it in coal tar and cigarette smoke. It is a chemical likely to cause cancer in humans.
Arsenic — This deadly poison causes diarrhea, cramps, anemia, paralysis and malignant skin tumors. It's used in pesticides.
Acetone — It's one of the active ingredients in nail polish remover.
Lead — Lead poisoning stunts your growth, makes you vomit and damages your brain.
Formaldehyde — It causes cancer, and can damage your lungs, skin and digestive system. Embalmers use it to preserve dead bodies.
Cadmium — It causes damage to the liver, kidneys and brain, and stays in the body for years.
Ammonia — Scientists have discovered that ammonia lets you absorb more nicotine - keeping you hooked on smoking.
Benzene — It's found in pesticides and gasoline.

Who in their right mind would want to purposefully injest this crap?

Most of those, when you buy them off the shelf come with huge warnings, cautions and safety notices. They are required to be listed in most MSD books.

You have a product, purposefully engineered to be addictive, using toxins with known side effects....and people want to complain about laws restricting their use?

I want more anti-smoking laws. I want it banned, out right, or taxed to the rafters. Make a pack of poison sticks cost $45. Make a carton cast $500.
Make it a criminal offense to smoke in front of your children or expose them to tobacco smoke.

Child Services would roast you alive if you left your kids play in the store room at the nail parlor, or let them guzzle whiskey all night long, why should this be any different?



Won't happen though. Too many in congress in the pay of Big Tobacco.
Too much money in the industry period.


As for me, smoke free work space, and always will be.


I went to a bar once with friends. Was there 4-5 hours. I didn't drink anything.
Took a week for my eyes to stop burning and not be bloodshot.
4 washings to destink my clothes, and my jacket still has hints of it now.
The smoke was -that- thick in there. (Yay Toronto)

So, yeah, I'm very biased against the crap.

You want to smoke, go ahead, but don't do it by me. I'll share a meal, I'll share a ride, I'll even share a bed, but your toxic habbit is all yours my friend.

Read this http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/secondhandsmoke/a/secondhandsmoke.htm
Then tell me again how your right to self-poisoning trumpss my right to live a healthy life or choose that my kids (should I have them) do the same?

Some exerpts.

The Risks of Secondhand Smoke to a Child

* Low birthweight for gestational age
* Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS)- children whose mothers smoked during pregnancy have an increased risk of SIDS.
* The EPA estimates that passive smoking is responsible for between 150,000 and 300,000 of these infections in children under 18 months annually
* Asthma - According to the EPA, between 200,000 and 1,000,000 kids with asthma have their condition worsened by secondhand smoke every year. Also, passive smoking may also be responsible for thousands of new cases of asthma every year
* Chronic respiratory symptoms such as cough and wheezing may be attributed to secondhand smoke.
* Children who breathe in secondhand smoke are more likely to suffer from dental cavities, eye and nose irritation, and irritability
* Middle ear infections - exposure to ETS causes buildup of fluid in the middle ear, resulting in 700,000 to 1.6 million physician office visits yearly

How Secondhand Smoke Can Affect the Heart

* Heart disease mortality - an estimated 35,000 to 62,000 deaths are caused from heart disease in people who are not current smokers, but who are exposed to ETS
* Acute and chronic coronary heart disease
* Passive smoking has been linked to the narrowing of the carotid arteries, which carry blood to the brain
* Exposure to secondhand smoke hastens hardening of the arteries, a condition known as artherosclerosis
* Continual exposure to ETS has been shown to nearly double the chance of heart attack

So, your desire for a momentary high is likely to cost me significantly in medical bills and lost time, as well as increase my and my kids chances of long term health issues, and you insist you have a right?


I think I should have the right to spray you in the face with a can of pure oxygen whenever you light up by me.

Guess what that'll do to your smoldering weed?

 

[Omar B]

Ok, then tell me how people can ethically ban something that is legal and people do by choice? You can't go around not liking people's choices and then remove said choice, the world's not made for non smokers alone and frankly taking the right to smoke from people in private establishments is just fascism wearing a smile. If a businessman wants his bar, restaurant, club, etc to allow smoking then he should be able to do so, he pays the bills. As consumers in a capitalist economy we have choice and if we don't smoke there are many places you can go that offer a smoke free environment. What next, government telling you what you can and cannot do in your own home? Maybe if enough vegans get together and complain enough about meat we'll not have that anymore too. Poor vegans, poor non smokers.

Are people usually blowing smoke at you all day? Well that's a shame but I do think that if you are on the street walking and someone's smoking then you've got the both the choice to movie and the legs to move with. If smoking is an abuse to your lungs then don't hang out where people are smoking. I don't like christians so I don't hang out in a church, it's not hard to avoid something you don't agree with. It's not as if someone's coming to the door and blowing smoke under it.

Besides, I think there's much more crap in the air from cars, industrial exhaust and livestock.

 

[Kreth]

I'm a smoker, and I support no smoking in a restaurant. For a bar, I think it's a stupid idea. As for the anti-smoking Nazis (for example, the morons here who wanted to ban smoking outdoors in City parks ), well, I can't give my usual response here without turning my post into a bunch of asterisks...

 

[Omar B]

I'm a smoker, and I support no smoking in a restaurant. For a bar, I think it's a stupid idea. As for the anti-smoking Nazis (for example, the morons here who wanted to ban smoking outdoors in City parks ), well, I can't give my usual response here without turning my post into a bunch of asterisks...

Non of these anti-smoking people realize that with all these studies out on the effects of smoking people know. You know, I know but we choose to because we like it. It's not up to the rest of the public at large to decide how, when and if I smoke. Out on the street I'm gonna smoke, in the park, I'm gonna smoke. If people are so worried about their health and the health of their kids then look out for the smokers and keep away, just like you look out for any other danger. As for it's effects on my health, mind your own business, I know what smoking does now bugger off. Just like the religious folk worrying about my soul, screw you, it's my soul, go stroke your own damn soul.

 

[FearlessFreep]

It's just smoking nazi's trying to to exert some level of control over another person's life and choices.

Then I guess I'm a farting nazi because I would appreciate the courtesy of you not dong that around me either. I don't think we should pass a law to keep you from farting, but I would expect that some sort of sense of decency would motivate you to be more a but more judicious.

I don't think we need laws to force people to be respectful, but I guess it's pretty sad then that some would find mutual respect for those in the area to be a nusiance

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, then tell me how people can ethically ban something that is legal and people do by choice? You can't go around not liking people's choices and then remove said choice, the world's not made for non smokers alone and frankly taking the right to smoke from people in private establishments is just fascism wearing a smile. If a businessman wants his bar, restaurant, club, etc to allow smoking then he should be able to do so, he pays the bills. As consumers in a capitalist economy we have choice and if we don't smoke there are many places you can go that offer a smoke free environment. What next, government telling you what you can and cannot do in your own home? Maybe if enough vegans get together and complain enough about meat we'll not have that anymore too. Poor vegans, poor non smokers.

Are people usually blowing smoke at you all day? Well that's a shame but I do think that if you are on the street walking and someone's smoking then you've got the both the choice to movie and the legs to move with. If smoking is an abuse to your lungs then don't hang out where people are smoking. I don't like christians so I don't hang out in a church, it's not hard to avoid something you don't agree with. It's not as if someone's coming to the door and blowing smoke under it.

Besides, I think there's much more crap in the air from cars, industrial exhaust and livestock.

It's illegal to serve alcohol to minors.
It's illegal (in many places) to talk on your perfectly legal cell phone while driving.
It's illegal for you in many places to get dressed, read your paper, or make a snack while driving a car.


It's totally legal to walk around bare foot.
Except in food prep areas.

It's legal to go shirtless in most places (for men) and some (for women)
Yet I see many places with signs that deny people entry.

I've even seen places that deny you entry and service should you not be wearing the correct type of attire. (Jacket and Tie Required).

But no, I do not frequent anyplace where smoking is allowed. bars, nightclubs, restaurants, casinos, strip clubs, etc.

But I also feel I shouldn't have to walk through the gaggle of addicts puffing away to get in and out of the mall, or the store, or the office either.

As to the other crap in the air, that's a different discussion, but maybe people should start paying attention to the easily bought idiots they've been putting into office in the US the last 20 years, who have sold us out to polluters and poisoners for campaign contributions.

As to this: "It's not as if someone's coming to the door and blowing smoke under it."
Actually, I have had that problem. They also spliced into my cable and electric too, and the landlord did nothing.



And Kreth, thanks for wearing the pine tree at the 05 meet n greet. I'm thinking of making it mandatory next year for everyone after hour 4. (little pine trees with the MT logo on em, with that new gm scent.) LOL

 

[Omar B]

Fearless Sleep. I hear ya man, but there's a difference between acting with courtesy and making a law. I wouldnt smoke in a daycare center, but then it's the last place I would be because I don't like kids and when I'm at a bar I fully expect that I can smoke because if you are at a bar as an adult you should know what goes on, drinking, smoking, foul language, maybe even some gambling. Doesn't mean if you don't like it you can form a group and pacify the world for you and yours while stripping away other people's right to live their lives how they see fit.

 

[Tez3]

Non of these anti-smoking people realize that with all these studies out on the effects of smoking people know. You know, I know but we choose to because we like it. It's not up to the rest of the public at large to decide how, when and if I smoke. Out on the street I'm gonna smoke, in the park, I'm gonna smoke. If people are so worried about their health and the health of their kids then look out for the smokers and keep away, just like you look out for any other danger. on As for it's effects my health, mind your own business, I know what smoking does now bugger off. Just like the religious folk worrying about my soul, screw you, it's my soul, go stroke your own damn soul.

I have no objections to anyone smoking in parks, their own homes,cars etc feel free, I just don't want you smoking while you are either treating me, teaching me, serving me etc. I will avoid you as a smoker but you had better avoid me too. As for health, as Americans you pay for your own health care so your health is your own business but here in the UK we all pay for the NHS and so we pay for smokers who become ill through smoking therefore that does become my business. I'm paying for people who have heart and lung conditions, amputated legs etc through their own choices (and yes we pay for alcoholics, drug addicts and other self abusers too) they block beds that should be for people who become ill through no fault of their own, they take up resources that could be better used.
Omar I really don't think you have to be so offensive.

 

[ont]

In Ontario we have had the ban in public buildings for years and it is very nice not to be not to be bothered by smoke everywhere you go. But now they are thinking of banning smoking in cars if you have children it.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Non of these anti-smoking people realize that with all these studies out on the effects of smoking people know. You know, I know but we choose to because we like it. It's not up to the rest of the public at large to decide how, when and if I smoke. Out on the street I'm gonna smoke, in the park, I'm gonna smoke. If people are so worried about their health and the health of their kids then look out for the smokers and keep away, just like you look out for any other danger. As for it's effects on my health, mind your own business, I know what smoking does now bugger off. Just like the religious folk worrying about my soul, screw you, it's my soul, go stroke your own damn soul.

Actually Omar, to be honest, I know you know...and I know you know that I know that you know.

But see, it's not your health I care about.
(Note I say "your" here generically. This isn't personal)

It's mine.

You want to smoke, go ahead. Smoke.
Do crack, pot, acid, lick toads, have unprotected sex in SE Asia or South America, use lead paint, hook up 27 things to 1 ungrounded electrical outlet, join the Polar Bear club, or leave your mayo out on the counter for a month til it turns plaid then make tuna salad with it.
I don't care.

Until it directly impacts me.
Then I care.

Stop second hand smoke, and I'll even buy you a pack of those $45 camels.


I like the idea of a self-contained helmet with filters.
All smokers would be required to wear them (just like we now require helmets for extreme sports, motorcycles and kids).
They would trap the smoke within allowing you, the smoker to not waste any of it (since so much of it just blows away for others to "enjoy" now).

You can use them everywhere, even in the shower!

 

[Omar B]

It's illegal to serve alcohol to minors.
It's illegal (in many places) to talk on your perfectly legal cell phone while driving.
It's illegal for you in many places to get dressed, read your paper, or make a snack while driving a car.
It's totally legal to walk around bare foot.
Except in food prep areas.
It's legal to go shirtless in most places (for men) and some (for women)
Yet I see many places with signs that deny people entry.
I've even seen places that deny you entry and service should you not be wearing the correct type of attire. (Jacket and Tie Required).
But no, I do not frequent anyplace where smoking is allowed. bars, nightclubs, restaurants, casinos, strip clubs, etc.
But I also feel I shouldn't have to walk through the gaggle of addicts puffing away to get in and out of the mall, or the store, or the office either.
As to the other crap in the air, that's a different discussion, but maybe people should start paying attention to the easily bought idiots they've been putting into office in the US the last 20 years, who have sold us out to polluters and poisoners for campaign contributions.
As to this: "It's not as if someone's coming to the door and blowing smoke under it."
Actually, I have had that problem. They also spliced into my cable and electric too, and the landlord did nothing.

It's illegal (in many places) to talk on your perfectly legal cell phone while driving. - That's a safety issue, just like drinking and driving.

It's totally legal to walk around bare foot. Except in food prep areas. - That's a food safety issue but then I've never found that common practise for chefs to go around barefoot.

It's legal to go shirtless in most places (for men) and some (for women)
Yet I see many places with signs that deny people entry. - That's not a law, it's a choice that management makes just like they should be able to chose if they want smokers or not.

But I also feel I shouldn't have to walk through the gaggle of addicts puffing away to get in and out of the mall, or the store, or the office either. - Walk around the gaggle of addicts, you don't have to walk through them, avoid it like any other danger. If you see smoking as an assault just like a physical assault then avoid it like you would a rapist. I don't complain about the christians handing out pamphlets on the sidewalks, I walk around them and I don't get pamphlet all over me.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Actually Omar, to be honest, I know you know...and I know you know that I know that you know.

But see, it's not your health I care about.
(Note I say "your" here generically. This isn't personal)

It's mine.

You want to smoke, go ahead. Smoke.
Do crack, pot, acid, lick toads, have unprotected sex in SE Asia or South America, use lead paint, hook up 27 things to 1 ungrounded electrical outlet, join the Polar Bear club, or leave your mayo out on the counter for a month til it turns plaid then make tuna salad with it.
I don't care.

Until it directly impacts me.
Then I care.

Stop second hand smoke, and I'll even buy you a pack of those $45 camels.


I like the idea of a self-contained helmet with filters.
All smokers would be required to wear them (just like we now require helmets for extreme sports, motorcycles and kids).
They would trap the smoke within allowing you, the smoker to not waste any of it (since so much of it just blows away for others to "enjoy" now).

You can use them everywhere, even in the shower!

Side bar: I realize I'm coming across a bit hard *** here and want it clear, I'm not going for Omar (or anyone elses) throat, and hope he (and they) also aren't taking it personally. At the end of the day, I'd hope we'd all still be able to sit down and enjoy something cold and refreshing together.

 

[Kreth]

At the end of the day, I'd hope we'd all still be able to sit down and enjoy something cold and refreshing together.

Only if the bar allows smoking...

 

[Bob Hubbard]

But I also feel I shouldn't have to walk through the gaggle of addicts puffing away to get in and out of the mall, or the store, or the office either. - Walk around the gaggle of addicts, you don't have to walk through them, avoid it like any other danger. If you see smoking as an assault just like a physical assault then avoid it like you would a rapist. I don't complain about the christians handing out pamphlets on the sidewalks, I walk around them and I don't get pamphlet all over me.

Sometimes, you don't have the option of going around em, especially this time of year. When I left the mall on Friday, there were about 20 of em standing there, basically blocking the entrance. Options were, push through, or try another way in, which I could see was also similarly crowded.

As to the pamphlets...well, I ignore most, but the insistent ones get invited back to the coven for a baby BBQ.

 

[Omar B]

I have no objections to anyone smoking in parks, their own homes,cars etc feel free, I just don't want you smoking while you are either treating me, teaching me, serving me etc. I will avoid you as a smoker but you had better avoid me too. As for health, as Americans you pay for your own health care so your health is your own business but here in the UK we all pay for the NHS and so we pay for smokers who become ill through smoking therefore that does become my business. I'm paying for people who have heart and lung conditions, amputated legs etc through their own choices (and yes we pay for alcoholics, drug addicts and other self abusers too) they block beds that should be for people who become ill through no fault of their own, they take up resources that could be better used.
Omar I really don't think you have to be so offensive.

I just don't want you smoking while you are either treating me, teaching me, serving me etc. - Dude, who does that? People smoke when they are relaxing, not when they are working. If they do then it's that specific person's problem. When I do go into the office I don't sit at my boss's desk and smoke though I could. It's just not the time or the place, your sentence is analogous to going a doctor, teacher, chef who's drinking while trying to function at their job.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Only if the bar allows smoking...

Not in my county...unless we hit a native run one. They're exempt from health and labor laws here.