Ninja history??

[r erman]

Originally posted by heretic888
Speaking of Gyokko ryu, what is your take on the Sanshin no Kata (or Ki no Kata as it is sometimes called) in relation to Hayes' system of the Godai?? Do you think Hayes was just way off in this matter?? Or do you think there is some kind of relationship??

I know this was meant for Jay but here is an answer in Mr Hayes' own words:

http://www.quest-l.com/collection/godai.htm

 

[Jay Bell]

Stephen K. Hayes is a pioneer in this martial training. The first American to travel to Japan to study the art of ninjutsu, he is a Shihan Shidoshi, under the tutelage of Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi.

No he wasn't. Terry Dobson was. Would this be an example of things that don't sit well? Sure does me..

 

[r erman]

C'mon Jay, now you are splitting hairs Terry Dobson was in Japan because of Aikido, not Ninjutsu. He may have trained with and been friends with Hatsumi soke, but he wasn't a student in the sense that Navon, Hayes, Munthe, or the japanese were.

 

[Jay Bell]

*chuckle* Yeahyeah

Notice how rare it is that no one mentions Danny Waxman?

 

[heretic888]

Yes

Cryptic as always, neh Jay??

((Or maybe I'm just blabbin' too much??))

I know this is so two pages ago, but I thought I'd say that a very high-ranking american Genbukan Instructor told me that Tanemura had actually validated this story(golf course training) when I mentioned to him a quote from a japanese shihan saying he must have missed training that day. He also mentioned that Tanemura often taught inton and more of the 'sneaky' stuff to his students when he was still in the booj.

Hmmm.... interesting. I also seem to recall a post on E-budo in which it was alluded that Tanemura may have also taught Hayes the Godai ideas. Apparently, Tanemura made reference to using "water" to counter an enemy's "fire" in a technique, but I'd have to go check the thread to make sure.

Also, I think Jay is right in that Hayes pieced some of his earlier info together from different sources, some of his earlier suppositions are not borne out by research, but then some are(i.e. the strong link between ninja, shugendo, and yamabushi).

I didn't think there was that strong of a connection between the Ninja/Ninpo and the Yamabushi/Shugendo outside of the Togakure-ryu...... Mikkyo is another story, however.

I think the largest piece of misinfo may have been the strong demarcation between the ninja and the samurai, as separate classes...

I would definitely agree with that. Even the stereotypical "Bujinkan is 3 ninja and 6 samurai schools" line often found on the internet is evident of the rather rigid dichotomy many people have between the two. Still, I think Hayes' writings were focusing more on the differences between Ninpo (as he saw it) and Bushido, rather than the Ninja and Samurai themselves.

I know this was meant for Jay

Actually, it was meant for anyone with an answer.

Laterz.