Ninja history??

[heretic888]

I felt like starting a thread discussing the history of the ninja and Ninpo. What are your thoughts on the subject??

 

[tonbo]

Boy, felt like opening up the industrial-size can o'worms, huh?

This is going to depend on who you talk to and what sources they have, or claim to have. You will find everything from claims that ninjas were superhuman and trained by "demons" to claims that ninjas never really existed.

I think this is one reality you may have to define for yourself...

Ninjas *do* have pretty cool clothes and gear, tho......

Peace--

 

[Jill666]

Well, my current handle on Ninja history comes straight from Stephen K Hayes' writings, so I would refer you to his books.

I imagine that info is reasonably accurate, given (as Von Clauswicz said) that "the map is not the terrain".

I do think people tend to mystify or demonize anything they don't understand.

 

[Jay Bell]

Well, my current handle on Ninja history comes straight from Stephen K Hayes' writings, so I would refer you to his books.

I wouldn't put much weight at all in anything written by Stephen Hayes. There is a ton of misinformation in his books written years ago. As a side..."History and Traditions" was also written by Mr. Hayes...though it claims Hatsumi sensei on the cover.

 

[Cryozombie]

"There are many theories as to the beginnings of what we know as the art of ninjutsu today. Each Japanese historian has his or her own set of facts and beliefs, and it is difficult pinpointing a specific place, person, time, or set of circumstances that would be acceptable to all as the birth of the art. In all truthfulness, ninjutsu did not come into being as a specific well-defined art in the first place, and many centuries passed before ninjutsu was established as an independent system of knowledge in its own right. The people who were later referred to as ninja did not originally use that label for themselves. They considered themselves to be merely practitioners of political, religious, and military strategies that were cultural opposites of the conventional outlooks of the times. Ninjutsu developed as a highly illegal counter culture to the ruling samurai elite, and for this reason alone, the origins of the art were shrouded by centuries of mystery, concealment, and deliberate confusion of history."

You can read the whole thing here...

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

Not that it really tells you a lot of solid fact, but then again...

 

[heretic888]

wouldn't put much weight at all in anything written by Stephen Hayes. There is a ton of misinformation in his books written years ago.

Such as??

You've mad this claim more than once, Jay, but have yet to give the particulars.

As a side..."History and Traditions" was also written by Mr. Hayes...though it claims Hatsumi sensei on the cover.

"As for the ninja have being depicted as mere mercenaries, this is an unfortunate magnification of isolated cases. Certainly there were "rogue" ninja, as there were rogue samurai or sailors or anyone who went awry of the code of justice they had sworn to. But these were minor compared to the whole. Those of you who have read my book, Ninjutsu: History and Tradition, will probably recall that portion dealing with this aspect. Rather than seeing themselves as mercenaries or thugs, the ninja 'considered themselves to be merely practitioners of political, religious and military strategies that were cultural opposites of the conventional outlooks of the times. Ninjutsu developed as a highly illegal counter culture to the ruling samurai elite, and for this reason alone, the origins of the art were shrouded by centuries of mystery, concealment and deliberate confusion of history.' "

--Masaaki Hatsumi, in an issue of NINJA magazine

I guess Soke was confused that day, huh??

 

[Jill666]

I have a copy of Ninjutsu- History and Tradition, by Dr Masaaki Hatsumi. Where do you come by the info that Hayes actually wrote it?

I haven't read much of it yet- still in Hayes' writing along with my Bujikan training manual.

As a Kenpo practitoner, I find the transition to Taijutsu um, interesting. I think I've learned more Japanese in the past six months than the past six years!

As for particulars, I would ask for that also. Also for your school and how it differs from the Bujinkan I am studying. That might be helpful (for me).

Thank you
:asian:

 

[Bujingodai]

Jill I don't know where it is stated but it is well known that SKH wrote or had much to do with it.

I like his writings, but I think there is merit to everything to a degree.

 

[heretic888]

Jill I don't know where it is stated but it is well known that SKH wrote or had much to do with it.

As I understand it, Hayes (along with his wife) edited the book and the book is really just a collection of essays by Hatsumi-soke that Hayes 'added to' here and there. He did not simply 'write it' by any means.... especially when you consider that NINJA magazine article when Hatsumi directly references it as "my book".

 

[Cryozombie]

heretic888,

I'm going to side with Jay on his comment about questioning what Shidoshi Hayes writes...

I admit to having a pretty negative view of Stephan K Hayes and the Quest centers in general, so of course I would tend to question the legitimacy of a lot of Shidoshi Hayes material... I have read occasionaly (and heard from other Bujinkan instructors) that many of the things Shidoshi Hayes wrote were embellished and/or made up, such as the "golf course" incident in His book "Ninja and their Secret Fighting Art"

I personally Began my "Bujinkan" Training at a school run by Shidoshi Hayes organization "Shadows of Iga". It was VERY expensive and they required a year contract AND you had to purchase his Books in order to pass rank tests. The Head instructor there also told me that Shidoshi Hayes was still the only american Ninja Instructor. When I met the Shidoshi Sterling, who later became my instructor and he told me what he taught, but that he was not part of Shidoshi Hayes organization, I basicaly called him a fraud because I was mislead by the Shadows of Iga to make a buck off me. I got lucky and instead of "blowing me off" Shidoshi Sterling came back and showed me credentials from Sensei Hatsumi and let me come train with him.

All in all, my personal experience leads me to doubt much of what Shidoshi Hayes claims... But again, I may just be cynical due to past experiance.

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by Technopunk
I personally Began my "Bujinkan" Training at a school run by Shidoshi Hayes organization "Shadows of Iga". It was VERY expensive and they required a year contract AND you had to purchase his Books in order to pass rank tests. The Head instructor there also told me that Shidoshi Hayes was still the only american Ninja Instructor. When I met the Shidoshi Sterling, who later became my instructor and he told me what he taught, but that he was not part of Shidoshi Hayes organization, I basicaly called him a fraud because I was mislead by the Shadows of Iga to make a buck off me. I got lucky and instead of "blowing me off" Shidoshi Sterling came back and showed me credentials from Sensei Hatsumi and let me come train with him.

All in all, my personal experience leads me to doubt much of what Shidoshi Hayes claims... But again, I may just be cynical due to past experiance.

Ok, that's understandable- I'd also be very skeptical. All I can say is I study Kasumi-An Bujinkan. I have signed nothing, purchased nothing, and my instructor charges fifteen bux for two hours if you show up (routinely he runs over to about three hours). His instructor is Mark Davis in Boston, and they go to Hatsumi-sensei for seminars and testing.

I'm glad you found a good instructor who you can learn from. Thanks for sharing your experience.

:asian:

 

[Bujingodai]

I have never had anything to do with Hayes, bought books and vids from quest.
I did have a chum I talked to online who was a student of his Dayton school. 4 yrs and he was basically an orange belt. 100+ a month as well. That all seemed too much to me.
My old Shidoshi wasn't a fan either, said SKH was a good businessman. He definatly knows how to network. But for his teachings I can't say.

 

[Jay Bell]

*sigh*

You've mad this claim more than once, Jay, but have yet to give the particulars.

When have you asked?

I guess Soke was confused that day, huh??

Yep...and wasn't the first time either. This happens quite often. You'd be better off getting used to it.

Ninjutsu: History and Traditions was written by Stephen Hayes. Hatsumi sensei is very open about this.

If you're looking for historical texts on Ninpo, then purchase Hatsumi sensei's books or do the research yourself.

He did not simply 'write it' by any means.... especially when you consider that NINJA magazine article when Hatsumi directly references it as "my book".

That would be an incorrect assumption. Hatsumi sensei's name was put on the book to draw a crowd...which it did quite well. It served its purpose. Unfortunately, people continue to use the book today as gospel...due to not being around when it all came out that it wasn't "his book".

Hatsumi sensei is the first (source: his books) to stand up and explain that Ninjutsu and the history there-of is clouded in confusion, gaps and mystery. However...he has been passed much information regarding the ryuha that he heads.

 

[gozanryu]

Hmmm, the Terrain is not the Territory...

 

[heretic888]

Most intriguing....

When have you asked?

Well, I'm asking now then. I would sincerely like to know as I own many of Hayes' publications and am interested in knowing which parts are and are not the reputed embellishments.

Now, please don't perceive any of this to be accusatory because it's not. I'm just trying to piece things together here. Thanks.

If you're looking for historical texts on Ninpo, then purchase Hatsumi sensei's books or do the research yourself.

What particular sources/publications would you recommend??

 

[Bujingodai]

The last publication Understand Good Play, now that the ridiculous $70 CDN price tag is gone is a pretty good collection of statements. There are alot there in that book that both turn me towards and away from Hatsumi Sensei. Regardless a good read. I enjoy the Grandmasters book of Ninja Training, it is a loose read but again good. The Esscence of Ninjutsu is a good thick read but it bored me. LOL I like pictures

 

[Jay Bell]

Well, I'm asking now then. I would sincerely like to know as I own many of Hayes' publications and am interested in knowing which parts are and are not the reputed embellishments.

This is honestly pretty tough...and would be a book in itself. Hayes' interpretation of Ninpo was extremely limited during his writing of his books. I believe he was merely a Shodan when those books were written...and that he had only spent a bit over a year (maybe 2?) in Japan training.

Much of the spiritual aspects that he wrote about being Ninja-based were actually "fill-in-the-blanks" using Tendai Buddhism.

Now, please don't perceive any of this to be accusatory because it's not. I'm just trying to piece things together here. Thanks.

No worries at all.

 

[heretic888]

The last publication Understand Good Play, now that the ridiculous $70 CDN price tag is gone is a pretty good collection of statements. There are alot there in that book that both turn me towards and away from Hatsumi Sensei. Regardless a good read.

That publication is basically a collection of the "Quotations from Soke" at the now-defunct Ura & Omote newsletter, is it not??

I enjoy the Grandmasters book of Ninja Training, it is a loose read but again good.

I've read that one. A bit hard to follow at times. Soke's comments on the kuji was interesting, though...

The Esscence of Ninjutsu is a good thick read but it bored me. LOL I like pictures

I loved that book! It had so much depth and meaning in it. The historical commentary at the end is interesting, as well (it denotes how closely tied some of the ryuha are historically).

This is honestly pretty tough...and would be a book in itself.

Yipe.

Hayes' interpretation of Ninpo was extremely limited during his writing of his books. I believe he was merely a Shodan when those books were written...and that he had only spent a bit over a year (maybe 2?) in Japan training.

Hmmm... I believe he stated in one of his books that he began training around '75. His first book wasn't published until '80 (although he was a shodan at the time). Of course, he may have written the core material for most of his books long before then (it's interesting to note that Hayes reverses some of his positions in one of his later books).

Much of the spiritual aspects that he wrote about being Ninja-based were actually "fill-in-the-blanks" using Tendai Buddhism.

I see.

But Ninpo was heavily influenced by Mikkyo, though, was it not?? Also, as a personal question, what would you describe as the 'spiritual aspects' of Ninpo in a more accurate light???

No worries at all.

 

[Jay Bell]

That publication is basically a collection of the "Quotations from Soke" at the now-defunct Ura & Omote newsletter, is it not??

Yeah, it sure is. Ben Cole did the "Quotes from Soke" and then eventually it became the book. I highly recommend it...it's great stuff.

But Ninpo was heavily influenced by Mikkyo, though, was it not?? Also, as a personal question, what would you describe as the 'spiritual aspects' of Ninpo in a more accurate light???

Well...yes and no honestly. Remember...Mikkyo is a *practice* of buddhism, not it's own entity.

If you take a look at the Gyokko ryu, you can explain it as the physical embodiment of Tantric Buddhism. Everything that is Gyokko ryu comes from this methodology. I've read about Shugendo having hard ties to Togakure ryu...but stemming from Buddhism (ala Gyokko), I can't really say.

Another change in the Mikkyo vs. Ninpo idea. Ninpo gassho work is not relgious based per se. Take the Ten Ryaku Uchu Gassho...in Buddhism, this hand formation is speaking to the heavens. It is promising the heavens that you will continue to polish your heart and live by the "right".

In Gyokko ryu, it is about becoming "zero"...and connecting in with nature and everything around you -- opponent included.

 

[heretic888]

Yeah, it sure is. Ben Cole did the "Quotes from Soke" and then eventually it became the book. I highly recommend it...it's great stuff.

Thanks. I'll try and pick that one, as well as "Ninpo: Wisdom for Life", up later on this month.

Well...yes and no honestly. Remember...Mikkyo is a *practice* of buddhism, not it's own entity.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Mikkyo is basically the Japanese version of Tantric Buddhism, I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong).

If you take a look at the Gyokko ryu, you can explain it as the physical embodiment of Tantric Buddhism. Everything that is Gyokko ryu comes from this methodology.

Intriguing. This commentary also holds true for Koto ryu, I assume, as the two schools are so closely intertwined.

I've read about Shugendo having hard ties to Togakure ryu...but stemming from Buddhism (ala Gyokko), I can't really say.

I believe the basic idea is that the first 'official soke' of the ryu, Daisuke (Nishina) Togakure, was supposedly a student of the Togakushi yamabushi before he went to Iga and learned Hakuun-ryu/Gyokko-ryu. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, what of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu?? Was it too incluenced by these 'religious' currents?? I have heard both Hakuun-ryu and Gyokko-ryu alternately claimed as the 'source' of many of the ryuha in the Bujinkan (namely: Togakure-ryu, Koto-ryu, Gyokushin-ryu, Gikan-ryu, Kukishinden-ryu, and Shinden Fudo-ryu). Of course, according to the lineages, Gyokko-ryu Shitojutsu actually comes from Hakuun-ryu I believe...

Another change in the Mikkyo vs. Ninpo idea. Ninpo gassho work is not relgious based per se. Take the Ten Ryaku Uchu Gassho...in Buddhism, this hand formation is speaking to the heavens. It is promising the heavens that you will continue to polish your heart and live by the "right".

In Gyokko ryu, it is about becoming "zero"...and connecting in with nature and everything around you -- opponent included.

Hmmm.... most intriguing. Of course, one could say that from a certain perspective these two interpretations are really the same (maybe perhaps different 'levels' of intepretation?).

In any event, thanks for the information.

Laterz.