Newsweek Poll: Majority of Americans Believe the Bible to be Historically Accurate

[heretic888]

Okay. More to the point, 67% of Americans say they believe the entire biblical account of Christmas. I'll bet most Americans also believe that there were three wise men and that their names were Balthasar, Gaspar and Melchior. Questioning is probably not important to most Americans.

Actually, with conclusions like the above, I would guess this has more to do with how the initial question that was presented to most Americans --- moreso than them "not questioning". This points to experimenter bias in the designing of statistical models.

Then again, I have seen polls taken over the last three or so decades that consistently indicate more than one-third of all Americans reject evolutionary theory completely. So, who knows?? :idunno:

 

[Makalakumu]

This thread has been interesting because it uncovered questions I asked myself years ago. I grew up Christian, then I learned this stuff and asked myself, "If my faith is nothing but fiction, why believe in it?" After drifting spiritually for a while, I finally converted to Unitarian Universalism. This is the only faith that would accept my truly agnostic position.

So, I guess I'll pose that same question, now that we have put all of this information up for debate.

"If Christianity is fiction and Jesus did not exist and none of the miracles were ever performed, why believe in this faith?"

upnorthkyosa

 

[heretic888]

This thread has been interesting because it uncovered questions I asked myself years ago. I grew up Christian, then I learned this stuff and asked myself, "If my faith is nothing but fiction, why believe in it?" After drifting spiritually for a while, I finally converted to Unitarian Universalism. This is the only faith that would accept my truly agnostic position.

Heh. Unitarian-Universalism is great. Its the only faith I kow of where you don't have to believe anything in particular, and the only commonality you may have with the others is that you show up.

So, I guess I'll pose that same question, now that we have put all of this information up for debate.

"If Christianity is fiction and Jesus did not exist and none of the miracles were ever performed, why believe in this faith?"

It depends on your attitude and perception as to what "Christianity" is, really.

Many, if not most, of the early Christians (prior to 400 CE) were docetics. Meaning, essentially, they did not hold the Gospel Narrative to have "literally" happened in a "physical" or "corporeal" fashion --- but, instead, held them to be perennial "spiritual" events. Tied into this belief was the system of gnosticism --- that "salvation" comes not from faith in an external Other, but in self-knowledge (ultimately culminating in the realization that one is God or Christ).

Of course, critics to the docetic/illusionist movement (such as apologetics like Irenaeus and Tertullian) posited that these wackos held the nutso belief that Jesus lived, but as some kind of weird disembodied ghoul-magician --- and that he only "appeared" to have died for your sins. This is clearly a distortion of what these individuals maintained, namely that the entire Bible (along with the whole manifest world) is an "appearance" (in other words, a symbol).

So, yeah, it depends on how you view Christianity. Personally, I prefer Zen. But, that's just me.

 

[Makalakumu]

It depends on your attitude and perception as to what "Christianity" is, really.

Many, if not most, of the early Christians (prior to 400 CE) were docetics. Meaning, essentially, they did not hold the Gospel Narrative to have "literally" happened in a "physical" or "corporeal" fashion --- but, instead, held them to be perennial "spiritual" events. Tied into this belief was the system of gnosticism --- that "salvation" comes not from faith in an external Other, but in self-knowledge (ultimately culminating in the realization that one is God or Christ).

Of course, critics to the docetic/illusionist movement (such as apologetics like Irenaeus and Tertullian) posited that these wackos held the nutso belief that Jesus lived, but as some kind of weird disembodied ghoul-magician --- and that he only "appeared" to have died for your sins. This is clearly a distortion of what these individuals maintained, namely that the entire Bible (along with the whole manifest world) is an "appearance" (in other words, a symbol).

So, yeah, it depends on how you view Christianity. Personally, I prefer Zen. But, that's just me.

I think that this may be too complicated for most people. Maybe I am underestimating the bulk of the christian public, but I don't think that they would buy into it. They haven't yet.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that when one learns about this, it truly causes a crisis in one's faith. One can either, choose to ignore it, exclaim that it cannot be true, or change beliefs.

Showing that, Jesus, the Bible, and God might only be symbols, weakens the current position the Christian Faith currently occupies in many people's hearts. And, in my opinion, by showing that it is all just fiction, one decreases the importance and relevance of the faith.

It is just another story among other stories. So, why believe in it, above any other story?

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Tongsau's comments in bold:

Is this the only martial art you practice? the art of quick tounge?

Are you addressing me, or Heretic? Your post is unclear on this, and incoherent in general.

I bow out - not to establish victory or defeat but to respond to my heart telling me: "Jeremiah 12:13, Jeremiah 23:28"


This was God telling the Israelites that he would lay waste their country. Why your heart is telling you this is beyond me, as it doesn't tie in with the paragraph in which you included it. You also failed to note that two verses later--in Jeremiah 12:15--God promises to restore the Israelites to their inheritance. Did your heart tell you this as well? If not, perhaps you should consult your pancreas.

But Jeremiah does tie in with the notion of the historicity of the Bible. The Babylonian exile took place. However; there is no reason to believe that God told Jeremiah any of that contained in this most lengthy book. Reason tells us that Jeremiah (or the authors claiming his name) likley wrote his "prophecies" after the exile and restoration of the Temple.

Tongsau, I'm not going to bow out in either victory or defeat--but probably not weigh in as often given my current schedule. However; I will respond to my prostate telling me "Proverbs, 18:6. Proverbs, 18:6."


Regards,


Steve

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I think that this may be too complicated for most people. Maybe I am underestimating the bulk of the christian public, but I don't think that they would buy into it. They haven't yet.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that when one learns about this, it truly causes a crisis in one's faith. One can either, choose to ignore it, exclaim that it cannot be true, or change beliefs.

Showing that, Jesus, the Bible, and God might only be symbols, weakens the current position the Christian Faith currently occupies in many people's hearts. And, in my opinion, by showing that it is all just fiction, one decreases the importance and relevance of the faith.

It is just another story among other stories. So, why believe in it, above any other story?

why have faith?
you have to look at the reasons behind the stories.
how many times have you been told something growing up.....or read a story that had a valuable lesson or moral?
i bet 80 - 90% of childrens books have lessons or morals between the pages. simply put, the bible is a collection of stories that are teaching a lesson.....and the main idea behind that lesson is that contained in everyone is the notion of god with the ability to do the right thing and act in the proper manner.
take a look at the eightfold path in buddhism....right understanding, thoughts, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, concentration. these are like the stepping stones to proper living minus the superbeing.....only you can be responsible for your actions.
the idea that an omnipotent being controls from within and without the entire workings of the universe is implausible and outlandish, this simply gives believers an out for their wrongdoings and comfort knowing that no matter what they did wrong.....someone is going to be waiting at the light at the end of the tunnel to give them a pat on the back and tell them its alright. who wouldnt take comfort in that!?
if we believe as fact the bible......why then do we not believe any other legend as actual fact? is the emperor of japan truely a descendant of a sun goddess? is there really a zeus? apply these questions to any "faith" from any region of the world. most people think that the idea of there ever being a zeus is preposterous, but the idea of a lord god is completely acceptable.
when you look at it like this, doesnt it seem unreasonable?
in the end....all you have is you. if you heed the lessons being taught and act according to the virtues and high moral standards...thats all we can do as humans.
there is no god pulling the strings......or sitting back scratching his/her chin as he or she watches us with otherworldly fascination wondering what is going to happen next in their universe sized ant farm.

 

[heretic888]

I think that this may be too complicated for most people. Maybe I am underestimating the bulk of the christian public, but I don't think that they would buy into it. They haven't yet.

I guess the point I am trying to make is that when one learns about this, it truly causes a crisis in one's faith. One can either, choose to ignore it, exclaim that it cannot be true, or change beliefs.

Showing that, Jesus, the Bible, and God might only be symbols, weakens the current position the Christian Faith currently occupies in many people's hearts. And, in my opinion, by showing that it is all just fiction, one decreases the importance and relevance of the faith.

It is just another story among other stories. So, why believe in it, above any other story?

Well, upnorthkyosa, what you have to stand is that originally "Christianity" was a mystery school (and is still taught as such in some corners of the globe). Mystery schools had very different ways of teaching their religion than we are accustomed to today.

Essentially, there were two components to the teachings: outer mysteries and inner mysteries.

Outer mysteries were the outward myths, stories, moral prescriptions, and the ritual consolances we are most accustomed to. Their main purpose was to introduce outsiders to the faith, and to indoctrinate a form of moral purpose and discipline. This is very important.

The inner mysteries, by contrast, were "secret" teachings given to adherents in private (this where the "mystery" part of mystery school comes in). As in the higher martial artists, this was often done through a direct student-guru relationship. Essentially, the inner mysteries consisted of the initiate learning that all those stories and rites he went through were really talking about him --- not a pie-in-the-sky deity. The trials and tribulations, temptation in the desert, crucifixion, and resurrection all referring to "spiritual" events that the initiate is to go through himself.

Of course, only those that were properly prepared or ready for the inner teachings would actually receive them. Today, as in the past, this comprises only a minority of the faith's adherents. Therefore, you are quite correct that most Christians wouldn't be able to "handle it".

Laterz.

 

[heretic888]

why have faith?
you have to look at the reasons behind the stories.
how many times have you been told something growing up.....or read a story that had a valuable lesson or moral?
i bet 80 - 90% of childrens books have lessons or morals between the pages. simply put, the bible is a collection of stories that are teaching a lesson.....and the main idea behind that lesson is that contained in everyone is the notion of god with the ability to do the right thing and act in the proper manner.
take a look at the eightfold path in buddhism....right understanding, thoughts, speech, action, livelihood, effort, mindfulness, concentration. these are like the stepping stones to proper living minus the superbeing.....only you can be responsible for your actions.
the idea that an omnipotent being controls from within and without the entire workings of the universe is implausible and outlandish, this simply gives believers an out for their wrongdoings and comfort knowing that no matter what they did wrong.....someone is going to be waiting at the light at the end of the tunnel to give them a pat on the back and tell them its alright. who wouldnt take comfort in that!?
if we believe as fact the bible......why then do we not believe any other legend as actual fact? is the emperor of japan truely a descendant of a sun goddess? is there really a zeus? apply these questions to any "faith" from any region of the world. most people think that the idea of there ever being a zeus is preposterous, but the idea of a lord god is completely acceptable.
when you look at it like this, doesnt it seem unreasonable?
in the end....all you have is you. if you heed the lessons being taught and act according to the virtues and high moral standards...thats all we can do as humans.
there is no god pulling the strings......or sitting back scratching his/her chin as he or she watches us with otherworldly fascination wondering what is going to happen next in their universe sized ant farm.

Whether its a secular Objective Truth or a sacred Divine Reality, the finite ego-self will find something to bind itself to. The actual content of the bound is irrelevant, since the result is pretty much the same.

 

[Ray]

Whether its a secular Objective Truth or a sacred Divine Reality, the finite ego-self will find something to bind itself to. The actual content of the bound is irrelevant, since the result is pretty much the same.

I just took down the plaque that said:

Think
- Thomas Watson

And put up a piece of paper with what you said on it. I'm not sure I understand it, but it makes me think.

 

[heretic888]

It's kind of a Buddhist thing. :ultracool