I don't think the Bible is literally accurate, but some of the words may have double meanings. It is very plausible to test the supernatural in it, but I guess some of the writings are eye-witness. There is nothing wrong in what those Americans think, I think many people who posted in this thread think it is wrong that they think the Bible is historically accurateRandomPhantom700 said:
Newsweek Poll: Majority of Americans Believe the Bible to be Historically Accurate
- Thread starter RandomPhantom700
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hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
I just read a book by Randall Helms entitled "Gospel Fictions." I thought it a literate and convincing argument for the idea that the Gospels are fictional mystery plays. They follow a literary style not uncommon at the time.
I never could understand the lack of harmony between the four Gospels. Helms explains why.
Regards,
Steve
I never could understand the lack of harmony between the four Gospels. Helms explains why.
Regards,
Steve
heretic888
Senior Master
hardheadjarhead said:
Yup.
Sounds similar to the argument used by J.M. Robertson in Pagan Christs. Mystery plays were very common at the time --- particularly in Alexandria, which is probably where Christianity was born. Both the literary themes and the 'monologues' in the Gospel story lend credence to the idea that they were originally play (as oppossed to eyewitness or even hand-me-down accounts).
If'n you don't believe me, read some of the Bacchae. Its alarming how similar it is to the Gospel account.
We see further proof when Paul tells the Galatians that Christ has been openly laid out and crucified before their very eyes. Makes no sense, considering the Crucifixion was supposed to happen in Jerusalem --- unless, of course, he is referring to re-enacting a mystery play. Paul himself references this when he says he has been "crucified and resurrected" with the Lord, hinting at participating in the play himself.
Funny thing, though, that Paul chastises Christians that identify with a merely outward, literal, or 'physical' intepretation of Christianity. He calls them 'hylics', 'sarkics', 'outwardly Christian' and all sorts of meanly veiled stabs. 'Letter killeth' and all that...
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
my point precisely......you use and believe a version of the bible which was translated, abridged, and expurgated to suit a time and someone's particular agenda (just as martin luther wanted to bring an easy to understand bible to the common people printed in a common language, translating and changing words that he thought were more suitable in his opinion) regardless of the "real" meaning or intent behind the words. am i a student of the bible? you could say something like that.....i cant quote verbatim passages anymore, but i think i get the gist of it. do i believe it as true and real history of the world.......not in the least.donald said:
do you believe in the ancient gods of rome and greece and believe that their story is real history of the world.....i would guess no.
the stories of the bible are simply one religion's way of carrying on the teachings of their particular belief system through stories of great trial and tribulation and perserverence through adversity....per ardua ad astra
and then the new testament comes along telling more stories that have been around since ancient times speaking of a mythical godman coming and teaching the "new" (read old) way of thinking.
are my opinions going to do anything to your faith or your belief in the bible as history......absolutely not.
but that is what faith is.......being able to blindly follow and believe without reservation that that is the way things are.
i believe that human beings need only have faith in one thing......themselves.
if people strive to give a bit of themselves, help someone in need and love without reservation their fellow man, we'd have a pretty decent place to live in.........which i think is the whole point of the "teachings".
shawn
heretic888
Senior Master
I would argue that the stories of the Bible are also more than just that --- at least if you pierce beyond the surface significance --- but that goes into something most members of said religious traditions have great difficulty grappling with (and most agnostic/atheists don't care enough about to bother with).
Ta ta.
AC_Pilot
Blue Belt
If one understands the minor translational errors in the King James Bible it indeed is accurate history.. and in fact + - 99% of the prophecies contained therein have already been fullfilled to the letter. If you have not studied these prophecies and secular history and if you don't believe enough to even want to study the book then you'll never know this. Some final prophecies are unfolding before our eyes but most are blind to this. All is as it should be :asian:
BTW, the bible is not a Judeo-Christian" document. Christ condemned Judaism and said that they were blind people and in fact totally evil. Christians reject Babylonian Judiasm completely. The bible is an Israelite document for the eventual salvation of all believers through the teaching of the impending Kingdom of G-d on earth.. thru the sacrifice and leadership of our master, Jesus the Christ, king of kings. Jesus was not Jewish, but was of the tribe of Levi through Mary. G-d was his father, not Joseph. Jesus was an Israelite who rejected and condemned Judiasm.
BTW, the bible is not a Judeo-Christian" document. Christ condemned Judaism and said that they were blind people and in fact totally evil. Christians reject Babylonian Judiasm completely. The bible is an Israelite document for the eventual salvation of all believers through the teaching of the impending Kingdom of G-d on earth.. thru the sacrifice and leadership of our master, Jesus the Christ, king of kings. Jesus was not Jewish, but was of the tribe of Levi through Mary. G-d was his father, not Joseph. Jesus was an Israelite who rejected and condemned Judiasm.
heretic888
Senior Master
AC_Pilot said:
I have studied the subjects in question, and I still say your claims are full of poo.
Every "prophecy" recorded in the Bible has either:
A) Not happened.
B) Was "predicted" decades or even centuries after the event it proposed to prophesy.
And, I sincerely doubt anyone here has read an accurately translated Bible.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
yayyyyyyyyy!heretic888 said:
heretic888
Senior Master
AC_Pilot said:
Babylonian, huh??
There is just as much --- if not moreso --- astrological imagery and symbolism in the New Testament as there is in the Old. Twelve disciples, anyone?? "Fisher of men" (Pisces), anyone?? Christmas day, anyone?? Easter day, anyone?? Jesus fish, anyone??
This is nothing new. Academics have known about the Pagan overtones of Christian religion for decades.
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
BTW, the bible is not a Judeo-Christian" document. Christ condemned Judaism and said that they were blind people and in fact totally evil. Christians reject Babylonian Judiasm completely. The bible is an Israelite document for the eventual salvation of all believers through the teaching of the impending Kingdom of G-d on earth.. thru the sacrifice and leadership of our master, Jesus the Christ, king of kings. Jesus was not Jewish, but was of the tribe of Levi through Mary. G-d was his father, not Joseph. Jesus was an Israelite who rejected and condemned Judiasm
<sniff> Hey, did someone let an anti-semite in here? Open a window.
Jesus wasn't Jewish?
1. He preached in the Temple as a child.
2. His ministry targeted the Jews.
3. He advocated upholding the laws of Moses.
4. He was, according to the scriptures, of the seed of David. Don't try and dance around that one...it is written very clearly.
5. He was tried by a Jewish court, supposedly.
6. He honored the sabbath.
7. He debated Jewish theologians, who wouldn't have wasted their time with a gentile.
8. Your "prophecies" come from Jewish literature.
9. James, the brother of Jesus, was Jewish...as was Saul/Paul. Note Acts and the issues concerning dietary laws.
10. He referenced Jewish literature in his teachings.
11. Early Christianity was a completely Jewish movement that included gentiles following Jesus' death (again, refer to Acts).
12. The concept of a "messiah" is Jewish. His followers considered him the messiah...as does 2,000 years of Christian tradition.
13. "Messiah" translates to "anointed one." In Greek "anointed one" is translated as "Khristos," or "Christ."
14. A number of his life events were structured on stories taken from the Torah and other Jewish literature...a detail I'm willing to debate. I'm sure Heretic would love to jump in on that one.
I could go on, but I have to go teach.
Jesus was a Jew...regardless of whether you believe him to be God incarnate or not, the man was jewish. Two millenia of Christian doctrine supports that, the scriptures clearly indicate it. You're likely the first Christian I've run into who disputes that.
I'd suggest perhaps reading the Bible would be the first order of the day for you, AC_Pilot. Completely. Cover to cover. It appears you're using Cliff's Notes.
But be forewarned...if you go after the jews on this forum, by my father's sword I will lay into you such as I've never done before here on MT. I daresay others will join me with matched passion. Be careful.
Regards,
Steve
<sniff> Hey, did someone let an anti-semite in here? Open a window.
Jesus wasn't Jewish?
1. He preached in the Temple as a child.
2. His ministry targeted the Jews.
3. He advocated upholding the laws of Moses.
4. He was, according to the scriptures, of the seed of David. Don't try and dance around that one...it is written very clearly.
5. He was tried by a Jewish court, supposedly.
6. He honored the sabbath.
7. He debated Jewish theologians, who wouldn't have wasted their time with a gentile.
8. Your "prophecies" come from Jewish literature.
9. James, the brother of Jesus, was Jewish...as was Saul/Paul. Note Acts and the issues concerning dietary laws.
10. He referenced Jewish literature in his teachings.
11. Early Christianity was a completely Jewish movement that included gentiles following Jesus' death (again, refer to Acts).
12. The concept of a "messiah" is Jewish. His followers considered him the messiah...as does 2,000 years of Christian tradition.
13. "Messiah" translates to "anointed one." In Greek "anointed one" is translated as "Khristos," or "Christ."
14. A number of his life events were structured on stories taken from the Torah and other Jewish literature...a detail I'm willing to debate. I'm sure Heretic would love to jump in on that one.
I could go on, but I have to go teach.
Jesus was a Jew...regardless of whether you believe him to be God incarnate or not, the man was jewish. Two millenia of Christian doctrine supports that, the scriptures clearly indicate it. You're likely the first Christian I've run into who disputes that.
I'd suggest perhaps reading the Bible would be the first order of the day for you, AC_Pilot. Completely. Cover to cover. It appears you're using Cliff's Notes.
But be forewarned...if you go after the jews on this forum, by my father's sword I will lay into you such as I've never done before here on MT. I daresay others will join me with matched passion. Be careful.
Regards,
Steve
Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
The bulk of the prophacies have not come true, were writen about then-current events, etc.AC_Pilot said:
Fact - There is no evidence that Jesus ever existed.
Fact - Certain events mentioned in the bible and certain people refered to could not have occupied the same point in the time stream.
Both of these have been discussed to death here and in other threads.
*Passes AC some mustard for his foot*
You need to stop smoking that hobbit pipe weed.
- The Bible is a Jewish book, at least the bulk of the Old Testament is.
- There was no condemnation of the religion, just the corruption in the leadership.
- Christians do not reject it, they have adapted it to their needs.
- The Christian Bible has it's roots in Judaism, and the various pagan faiths it has adopted ritual, tradition and history from.
- GOD, god, God, and OHMYGAWD! are all ok to say here. If not, may Andy Warhol strike me down.
- Jesus was Jewish. He was also married. (There are Jewish laws on who may wear a beard...Jesus is always depicted with a beard, therefore, he was married.
- Mary was his mother, Joseph was his biological father.
- I know nothing of the brand of jeans he wore.
Now, shall we all continue and maybe allow things to get ugly?
If you need me, I'll be dancing naked in the woods waiting for a vision. Hope it was better than the last one. That was just some cop telling me to put on some pants. Oh wait, that was real. I had the court date. Damn. Need better pipeweed. :rofl:
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Oh, good. Anti-Semitism.
WARNING: if these, "the Jews," this and "the Jews," that posts continue, I will be making my first official complaint about another poster.
I have, "AC Pilot," specifically in mind. An open mind is one thing, and the promotion of out-and-out religious hatred is another. Grow up, stop posting, or face my wrath....yeah, there's a big worry. Oh well.
CUT IT OUT.
WARNING: if these, "the Jews," this and "the Jews," that posts continue, I will be making my first official complaint about another poster.
I have, "AC Pilot," specifically in mind. An open mind is one thing, and the promotion of out-and-out religious hatred is another. Grow up, stop posting, or face my wrath....yeah, there's a big worry. Oh well.
CUT IT OUT.
BlackCatBonz
Master Black Belt
give em the wrath, robert!!
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
No, YOU give 'em the wrath!!!
These Old Nobodaddy types scare me. It'll be interesting, though, to see if he comes back and denies everything--one supposes that he won't, since he's already made a number of these sorts of remarks.
However, to repeat: the idea of sitting on yer smug *** in heaven while the majority of all the people who have ever lived writhe in unending torment is a profoundly repulsive, fundamentally immoral, sick idea. One believes it to be antithetical to real Christianity, furthermore.
Indeed, it's one of the few true obscenities.
These Old Nobodaddy types scare me. It'll be interesting, though, to see if he comes back and denies everything--one supposes that he won't, since he's already made a number of these sorts of remarks.
However, to repeat: the idea of sitting on yer smug *** in heaven while the majority of all the people who have ever lived writhe in unending torment is a profoundly repulsive, fundamentally immoral, sick idea. One believes it to be antithetical to real Christianity, furthermore.
Indeed, it's one of the few true obscenities.
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
Of course not. Whoever this guy is--and one feels a little guilty about even saying cut it out--he's just some fairly wacky fundamentalist. Hopefully, the real problem is that he hasn't thought through what he's saying--though unfortunately, one suspects that he really does mean it.
You're just wrong, because you disagree with me...wait a minnit. That sounds wrong, somehow...
You're just wrong, because you disagree with me...wait a minnit. That sounds wrong, somehow...
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Do I...do I sense AGREEMENT from the conservatives and liberals on this issue of anti-semitism and fudamentalist extremism?
Bi-partisanship on Martialtalk. Gad.
I need to go lay down for a bit. My head is spinning.
Regards,
Steve
Bi-partisanship on Martialtalk. Gad.
I need to go lay down for a bit. My head is spinning.
Regards,
Steve
hardheadjarhead
Senior Master
Jesus was not Jewish, but was of the tribe of Levi through Mary. G-d was his father, not Joseph. Jesus was an Israelite who rejected and condemned Judiasm.
Some notes on the Levites...or the tribe of Levi:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09206a.htm
http://www.templebethelaptos.org/windows/levi.htm
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/levites.htm
It ought to be noted that Levi was Moses' great grandfather. Moses singled out the tribe of Levi to be priests and were responsible for guarding and serving the Tabernacle (see Numbers 3:21-37).
Now, if they aren't Jewish...what are they? Norwegian? Dutch? Latvian?
This reminds me of the time that an Evangelical with 25 years experience tried to tell me that the Gospel of John was written by John the Baptist. I had fun with that, too.
Regards,
Steve
Some notes on the Levites...or the tribe of Levi:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09206a.htm
http://www.templebethelaptos.org/windows/levi.htm
http://www.keyway.ca/htm2002/levites.htm
It ought to be noted that Levi was Moses' great grandfather. Moses singled out the tribe of Levi to be priests and were responsible for guarding and serving the Tabernacle (see Numbers 3:21-37).
Now, if they aren't Jewish...what are they? Norwegian? Dutch? Latvian?
This reminds me of the time that an Evangelical with 25 years experience tried to tell me that the Gospel of John was written by John the Baptist. I had fun with that, too.
Regards,
Steve
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