New WT Sparring Rules

[_Simon_]

Gaining 10-15 pounds in a day is common for combat sports. For example, in the UFC 135 pound weight class, the fighters will probably be in the 145-150 pound range. They just cut weight and dehydrate themselves for the weigh-in and then rehydrate during the day before the fight.

I've never never understood this about fights... to me it's just too risky, you sooo do not want to be dehydrated for your fight, and focusing so much on limiting carbs and water so close to your fight just to make your weight just makes no sense to me...

Obviously they have to make the weight, but I just reckon these drastic steps would just decrease their performance surely? Of course it depends on how close to the fight it is, and carb-deloading/loading has been shown to work when done right..

But nevertheless it confuses me tis all

 

[skribs]

I've never never understood this about fights... to me it's just too risky, you sooo do not want to be dehydrated for your fight, and focusing so much on limiting carbs and water so close to your fight just to make your weight just makes no sense to me...

Obviously they have to make the weight, but I just reckon these drastic steps would just decrease their performance surely? Of course it depends on how close to the fight it is, and carb-deloading/loading has been shown to work when done right..

But nevertheless it confuses me tis all

The advantage is you are 20 pounds heavier than you say you are, and despite all the mantras about size not mattering, it does.

 

[TrueJim]

despite all the mantras about size not mattering, it does

If I had a nickel....

 

[_Simon_]

The advantage is you are 20 pounds heavier than you say you are, and despite all the mantras about size not mattering, it does.

Ah yeah true, I guess I meant more in terms of the drastic measures to cut weight so soon to a fight, when nutrition and hydration are super important specifically at that stage... But obviously people do do it and are fine in their fights, so it must be ok if done smartly

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ah yeah true, I guess I meant more in terms of the drastic measures to cut weight so soon to a fight, when nutrition and hydration are super important specifically at that stage... But obviously people do do it and are fine in their fights, so it must be ok if done smartly

Some people do meth and heroin and are fine. I guess that means it's OK?

Some things are not OK, even if some people get away with it.

 

[_Simon_]

Some people do meth and heroin and are fine. I guess that means it's OK?

Some things are not OK, even if some people get away with it.

Lol... True, but I'm referring to the performance of their fight. Not so much their health long term (which of course would affect their fighting performance, but I'm talking short term performance). Alot of fighters seem to do this practice of cutting weight with seemingly drastic methods before a fight (with nutrition/hydration that are crucial to their functioning in their sport), and yet their endurance and ability in the fight seems on par, so all I'm saying is they must have it down to a real science in order to perform optimally. Still confusing to me hehe but yeah it's fascinating.

 

[skribs]

Lol... True, but I'm referring to the performance of their fight. Not so much their health long term (which of course would affect their fighting performance, but I'm talking short term performance). Alot of fighters seem to do this practice of cutting weight with seemingly drastic methods before a fight (with nutrition/hydration that are crucial to their functioning in their sport), and yet their endurance and ability in the fight seems on par, so all I'm saying is they must have it down to a real science in order to perform optimally. Still confusing to me hehe but yeah it's fascinating.

This is basically a given in the UFC, to the point that when I watch Ultimate Fighter, this seems to be the drama almost every week is making weight. I think it's actually a good reason to include same-day weigh-ins in addition to day-before weigh-ins, is to keep people from doing this to themselves.

If I had a nickel....

I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

IMO, either way the weight gain/loss is unhealthy, and they end up in the same weight class anyway-if both people gain 10 pounds from weigh in to fight, it's a fight between two people at 155 lb, rather than 145 lb. So if they prevented it altogether, by weighing people an hour before the match, the matchups would be the same anyway, the weight classes would just be more accurate and it would get rid of one extra health risk.

 

[Rough Rider]

I think "Monkey Kick" would be an awesome band name.

 

[TrueJim]

At our dojang we were joking about starting a band: "Kihap and the Board Breakers"

(When I was a college professor we professors had a band. We called ourselves: "The Diminished Faculties.")

(And when I was in grad school we talked about starting a band: "Head Cleaner and the Demagnetizers". Everybody has our tape!)

 

[skribs]

At our dojang we were joking about starting a band: "Kihap and the Board Breakers"

(When I was a college professor we professors had a band. We called ourselves: "The Diminished Faculties.")

(And when I was in grad school we talked about starting a band: "Head Cleaner and the Demagnetizers". Everybody has our tape!)

We have so many students at my Taekwondo school named Daniel (including me) so I've thought about starting a band with them called Daniel and the Daniels.

 

[Rough Rider]

I don't compete, so it has little effect on me. I do, however, judge at my school's annual tournament. We don't have the fancy new electronic hogus, so we have to use the devices with the buttons. I don't know what they're called, but they are sort of like old video game controllers. You hold the red one in your left hand and the blue one in your right. As points are scored, you press the appropriate button.

When I first started, it was relatively simple: Press the top button for a head kick and 2 points are recorded. Press the bottom button for a body shot (punch or kick) and 1 point is recorded. Even with this system, it was sometimes difficult to keep up with a fast-paced match.

The problem now is that these things only have 2 buttons. We had a lot of trouble at this year's tournament with some kicks being worth 3 or 4 points. We had to push multiple times to score one kick, and if the other judges didn't do it exactly the same, no points scored (2 out of three have to score it to count.) It was even more difficult with combinations. For example, if one fighter lands a roundhouse to the body and immediately follows with a crescent kick to the head, I used to simple press bottom then top. This year I had to press top for the roundhouse (2 points) and immediately press top then bottom for the head shot (3 points). Again, you have to be quick because the other guy might come right back within a second with a score of his own. Now, next year we're going to have to score anywhere from 1 to 5 points with only 2 buttons. This is madness.

 

[skribs]

I don't compete, so it has little effect on me. I do, however, judge at my school's annual tournament. We don't have the fancy new electronic hogus, so we have to use the devices with the buttons. I don't know what they're called, but they are sort of like old video game controllers. You hold the red one in your left hand and the blue one in your right. As points are scored, you press the appropriate button.

When I first started, it was relatively simple: Press the top button for a head kick and 2 points are recorded. Press the bottom button for a body shot (punch or kick) and 1 point is recorded. Even with this system, it was sometimes difficult to keep up with a fast-paced match.

The problem now is that these things only have 2 buttons. We had a lot of trouble at this year's tournament with some kicks being worth 3 or 4 points. We had to push multiple times to score one kick, and if the other judges didn't do it exactly the same, no points scored (2 out of three have to score it to count.) It was even more difficult with combinations. For example, if one fighter lands a roundhouse to the body and immediately follows with a crescent kick to the head, I used to simple press bottom then top. This year I had to press top for the roundhouse (2 points) and immediately press top then bottom for the head shot (3 points). Again, you have to be quick because the other guy might come right back within a second with a score of his own. Now, next year we're going to have to score anywhere from 1 to 5 points with only 2 buttons. This is madness.

It gets better with the electronic hogus when someone puts the head sensor in the chest and vice versa. Last tournament I went to with those it happened about every other match.

 

[TrueJim]

It gets better with the electronic hogus when someone puts the head sensor in the chest and vice versa. Last tournament I went to with those it happened about every other match.

The ref is supposed to prevent this by having each opponent tap the other in the chest before the match, to confirm that the correct sensor is in the correct hogu.

 

[pdg]

Are the sensors not marked for location?

 

[TrueJim]

I don't compete, so it has little effect on me. I do, however, judge at my school's annual tournament. We don't have the fancy new electronic hogus, so we have to use the devices with the buttons. I don't know what they're called, but they are sort of like old video game controllers...

I believe they're usually called Judge's Boxes (even when they're not actual boxes). Whether you have electronic hogu or not, the judges still need to have Judge's Boxes:

• When electronic hogus are used, pressing the buttons on the Judge's Boxes indicates spinning kicks (since automated sensors cannot tell whether or not somebody was spinning -- you need a human to press a button to indicate that spinning happened)
• When electronic hogus are not used, pressing the buttons indicates a hit.
• Often the same exact boxes are used whether a ring has electronic hogus or not...the behavior of the Judge's Boxes is controlled by the software in the laptops that the ring's Recorders are using.
• Most Judge's Boxes have 3 buttons for each of Blue and Red. When electronic hogu are not used:
• One of the buttons is used to indicate a kick to the hogu
• One of the buttons is used to indicate a kick to the head
• One of the buttons is used to indicate that the kick was a technical kick; for example you'll press two buttons in rapid succession: "kick to the hogu" + "technical kick". That some button is often used for a punch; if no "kick to the..." button was pressed first, then the software assumes that pressing the "technical" button must haven't meant punch.

Daedo uses magnetic induction to detect when a sock is approaching an electronic hogu; so basically it's the same technology that let's a stoplight know when a car is at the intersection (there's a big electromagnet under the pavement). KP&P uses Near Field Communications (NFC) to detect when a sock is approaching the hogu; so basically that's the same technology that a smartphone uses for tap-to-pay at the grocery store.

Because Daedo is just using magnets, Daedo cannot tell the left sock from the right sock. Daedo can't tell the front of the sock from the back of the sock. A magnet is a magnet is a magnet. Because KP&P is using NFC, each sock and each part of each sock can have a different microchip so that the hogu knows not only that it's been hit, but it also knows that it's been hit by which part of which sock.

Because Daedo is just magnets, its very durable and you can wash it easily. Because KP&P is microchips, it's more expensive and more delicate (but it's also designed to be more reparable).

In this photo, the third buttons are on the top-edge of the Judge Box. You work the facing buttons with your thumbs, and the top-edge buttons with your index fingers.

 

[TrueJim]

Are the sensors not marked for location?

It's not just the sensors, it's also the transmitters. Each ring will have several sizes of hogus available. If a size 4 fighter enters the ring, you'll take the transmitter out of whatever the last hogu was, and put the transmitter into the size 4 hogu. The transmitters fit into little pouches in the hogus and helmets. If both hogus (Blue and Red) are being swapped out, it's an easy mistake to put the Blue transmitter into the Red hogu, and vice versa. So as a ref, you're taught to double-check by having each athlete give the other athlete a little love-tap before the match; the ref will turn to the Recorder's stations to see that the Recorder software recorded the love-taps correctly. Once that's done, the ref will signal the human Recorder to reset the software, and the match can begin.

 

[pdg]

It's not just the sensors, it's also the transmitters. Each ring will have several sizes of hogus available. If a size 4 fighter enters the ring, you'll take the transmitter out of whatever the last hogu was, and put the transmitter into the size 4 hogu. The transmitters fit into little pouches in the hogus and helmets. If both hogus (Blue and Red) are being swapped out, it's an easy mistake to put the Blue transmitter into the Red hogu, and vice versa. So as a ref, you're taught to double-check by having each athlete give the other athlete a little love-tap before the match; the ref will turn to the Recorder's stations to see that the Recorder software recorded the love-taps correctly. Once that's done, the ref will signal the human Recorder to reset the software, and the match can begin.

I meant for head/body position, referring to the previous post about getting them mixed and having sensitivity issues.

Sorry, forgot to quote that in my previous post.

 

[TrueJim]

I meant for head/body position, referring to the previous post about getting them mixed and having sensitivity issue.

Probably what happened in the previous post is that the transmitter that was supposed to go into the helmet went into the hogu, and vice versa. A love-tap to the hogu would have detected this.

Regarding sensitivity, the system gets recalibrated throughout the day depending on the weight-class of the current event. It's assumed that heavyweights are hitting harder than featherweights. Whether you're using Daedo or KP&P, you have to recalibrate the hogu for the weight class. Whether you're using Daedo (magnets) or KP&P (NFC), those proximity sensors (magnets or NFC) are also augmented by load sensors in the hogu (I don't know much about how these work -- I'd like to learn more) that detect impact. The load sensor in KP&P covers the entire hogu (as it should) but the load sensor in a Daedo hogu covers only part of the hogu (boo!). Calibration is less of a problem for KP&P because the load sensor covers the entire hogu. Calibration is more of a problem for Daedo because you have to make the load sensor (a) sensitive enough to detect impact even when the load sensor is not directly under the kicking foot, but (b) if you make it too sensitive it'll detect even light taps instead of actual hits -- there's a Goldilocks aspect to calibrating Daedo hogus that's less of a problem for KP&P hogus.

 

[pdg]

So in essence it's really a training or procedural problem.

If it's an identical sensor used for each location but simply calibrated for that location and desired level of impact - then you shouldn't get them in the wrong place...

If it's a case of having a bunch of precalibrated sensors to choose from then I suggest a bit of masking tape and a marker