New TOW is in.

[Touch Of Death]

Go evolve Sean. When you're done growing wings look around you and think about what you lost and what you gained in the process?

Will do.

 

[jeffkyle]

My question is....What if the attacker "attempts" to kick you? Do you want to start with your hands up then?
I guess it boils down to what position your hands need to be in to gain the maximum efficiency for any defense or attack.
The one thing I can't get over in all of this is that the "natural" position of the hands, in any usual situation, is down. So to me that seems to be a good starting point.

 

[satans.barber]

good point; however, if you consider the syncronization of body, mind, and breath. Your hands hanging at your side will make the whole operation a little slower. (think sword and hammer and transfer lesson to rest of the art)
Sean

Of course, I don't suggest that this is the best defence, I just want people to concentrate on stepping out of the way as much, if not more than the block (when they first learn the technique anyway) and realise its importance.

Try not to think of it as just 'hands down by your sides', what if it's Winter and you have your hands deep in your coat pockets? What if you've been shopping and you're carrying plastic bags in each hand? What if, god forbid, you're carrying a child? I can think of loads of reasons why you may not be able to spring into action with your hands, so I still think it's valid training to practice not using them. :asian:

Ian.

 

[MJS]

Of course, I don't suggest that this is the best defence, I just want people to concentrate on stepping out of the way as much, if not more than the block (when they first learn the technique anyway) and realise its importance.

Try not to think of it as just 'hands down by your sides', what if it's Winter and you have your hands deep in your coat pockets? What if you've been shopping and you're carrying plastic bags in each hand? What if, god forbid, you're carrying a child? I can think of loads of reasons why you may not be able to spring into action with your hands, so I still think it's valid training to practice not using them. :asian:

Ian.

Agreed!! :asian: The "what if/even if" situations come to my mind here!

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

My question is....What if the attacker "attempts" to kick you? Do you want to start with your hands up then?
I guess it boils down to what position your hands need to be in to gain the maximum efficiency for any defense or attack.
The one thing I can't get over in all of this is that the "natural" position of the hands, in any usual situation, is down. So to me that seems to be a good starting point.

Yes, you do want your hands up if your opponent is kicking at you.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Of course, I don't suggest that this is the best defence, I just want people to concentrate on stepping out of the way as much, if not more than the block (when they first learn the technique anyway) and realise its importance.

Try not to think of it as just 'hands down by your sides', what if it's Winter and you have your hands deep in your coat pockets? What if you've been shopping and you're carrying plastic bags in each hand? What if, god forbid, you're carrying a child? I can think of loads of reasons why you may not be able to spring into action with your hands, so I still think it's valid training to practice not using them. :asian:

Ian.

Yes, but, for the most part, technique lines are the rule and not the exception; so, you are training for the exception. Your comment reminds me of "trainspotting" when the guy was dropped his beer to punch the guy in the face.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Well, again, it just proves my point that we all view things differently. What may work for one person, may not work for another. Is one persons way of doing something wrong just because its a little different? Of course not. Although you'll find many people who disagree very strongly with that, and I think its pretty obvious that its happening here.

A good example of this would be Delayed Sword. Some people pin the hand and some do not. Does this make it wrong? Nope. I've actually done it both ways, and while pinning gets a different reaction, it still worked both ways for me.

So.....if someone can block a punch without keeping their hands up...great! If they need to keep their hands up..thats great too! As long as whatever it is that they're doing works, and they dont get hit...well, isnt that the goal???

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, again, it just proves my point that we all view things differently. What may work for one person, may not work for another. Is one persons way of doing something wrong just because its a little different? Of course not. Although you'll find many people who disagree very strongly with that, and I think its pretty obvious that its happening here.

A good example of this would be Delayed Sword. Some people pin the hand and some do not. Does this make it wrong? Nope. I've actually done it both ways, and while pinning gets a different reaction, it still worked both ways for me.

So.....if someone can block a punch without keeping their hands up...great! If they need to keep their hands up..thats great too! As long as whatever it is that they're doing works, and they dont get hit...well, isnt that the goal???

Mike

Sure,... I suppose. But then where is the heated debate? :argue:
Sean :asian:

 

[MJS]

Sure,... I suppose. But then where is the heated debate? :argue:
Sean :asian:

Good point!! :asian:

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

We have ways of negating that jet lag Billy was talking about but that is another lesson...
Sean :asian:

 

[satans.barber]

Yes, but, for the most part, technique lines are the rule and not the exception; so, you are training for the exception. Your comment reminds me of "trainspotting" when the guy was dropped his beer to punch the guy in the face.
Sean

Even if I'm in a line I start with my hands by my sides, unless it's a technique that's specifically written from a stance (Retreating Pendulum and Glancing Wing are the only ones that spring to mind).

I have to agree with Billy on this one, I think you're giving yourself an unrealistic advantage and not training for the street if you're starting all your techniques with your hands up.

Sure, if someone comes up and starts talking at you in a pub or a car park, and you think they're going to have a go, you may be able to bring your hands up first in a 'don't want any trouble' sort of gesture that you can move from; but I've seen quite a lot of horrific video footage recently that makes me think this most likely isn't going to be the case.

I've seen some footage of police officers in America being attacked that was caught on the in-car cameras, where the people they'd pulled over just launched into their faces with no prior warning, threats otr violent behaviour. There was footage of people in shops and other places covered by cameras and CCTV being caught in much the same way. A lot of these people were attacked so violently it literally ruined their lives (some of them lost vision in one or both eyes, some were in comas, some suffered brain damage and so on). I'd still rather try and train for a knee-jerk dodge or dodge and parry reaction for these types of situations than to pretend I could always have my hands ready. As Billy said, you don't walk around with your hands up just in case...

Just my 2p

Ian.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Even if I'm in a line I start with my hands by my sides, unless it's a technique that's specifically written from a stance (Retreating Pendulum and Glancing Wing are the only ones that spring to mind).

I have to agree with Billy on this one, I think you're giving yourself an unrealistic advantage and not training for the street if you're starting all your techniques with your hands up.

Sure, if someone comes up and starts talking at you in a pub or a car park, and you think they're going to have a go, you may be able to bring your hands up first in a 'don't want any trouble' sort of gesture that you can move from; but I've seen quite a lot of horrific video footage recently that makes me think this most likely isn't going to be the case.

I've seen some footage of police officers in America being attacked that was caught on the in-car cameras, where the people they'd pulled over just launched into their faces with no prior warning, threats otr violent behaviour. There was footage of people in shops and other places covered by cameras and CCTV being caught in much the same way. A lot of these people were attacked so violently it literally ruined their lives (some of them lost vision in one or both eyes, some were in comas, some suffered brain damage and so on). I'd still rather try and train for a knee-jerk dodge or dodge and parry reaction for these types of situations than to pretend I could always have my hands ready. As Billy said, you don't walk around with your hands up just in case...

Just my 2p

Ian.

Those cops were poorly trained and allowed the assailant to get to close. They were unaware. Hows that Ed Parker Saying go... "Distance is your best friend." Once too close, proper proceedure would be left hand up, right hand at weapon while controling the distance.
Sean
:snipe2:

 

[MJS]

I believe the point SB was trying to make, was along the same lines as one of my posts talking about a sucker punch, or getting caught off guard. As I said, if you can detect that something may happen, having your hands up in the fashion that he mentioned is a good thing. But just when you thought that the verbal argument was over, and that things were settled, all of a sudden, the guy comes back and takes a swing at you. If getting your hands up quick enough is not possible, at least you may have a chance of moving out of the way.

Mike

 

[MJS]

Those cops were poorly trained and allowed the assailant to get to close. They were unaware. Hows that Ed Parker Saying go... "Distance is your best friend." Once too close, proper proceedure would be left hand up, right hand at weapon while controling the distance.
Sean
:snipe2:

Not always the case. If they are patting someone down, the guy is gonna be right there. A sudden turn could result in an elbow to the cops face.

Again, the point that is trying to be made here, is the "What if" situations.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

I believe the point SB was trying to make, was along the same lines as one of my posts talking about a sucker punch, or getting caught off guard. As I said, if you can detect that something may happen, having your hands up in the fashion that he mentioned is a good thing. But just when you thought that the verbal argument was over, and that things were settled, all of a sudden, the guy comes back and takes a swing at you. If getting your hands up quick enough is not possible, at least you may have a chance of moving out of the way.

Mike

Then by all means thrust, don't hammer.
sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not always the case. If they are patting someone down, the guy is gonna be right there. A sudden turn could result in an elbow to the cops face.

Again, the point that is trying to be made here, is the "What if" situations.

Mike

That would be a failure to control, and if your patting him down your hands are not at your sides.
Sean

 

[MJS]

That would be a failure to control, and if your patting him down your hands are not at your sides.
Sean

Nope, they're not at your sides, but they are not up either. If the officer is patting at the waist level, the head is wide open.

Question for you. We've been talking about the hands being up. What is your version of up?? Up like a boxer would keep them, IFO the chest??

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Nope, they're not at your sides, but they are not up either. If the officer is patting at the waist level, the head is wide open.

Question for you. We've been talking about the hands being up. What is your version of up?? Up like a boxer would keep them, IFO the chest??

Mike

hands above elbows, but not necessarily in front of chest.
Sean

 

[kenpo12]

Look, for video purposes Mr. Tatum generally starts with his hands down. Probably because the majority of techniques, in the manuel, start out with the defender in a "neutral position". I have seen Mr. Tatum teach us to vary our starting position, and he has taught us many times to get our hands up if possible. He has also taught us several ways to do it, and not be so obvious, like scratching your head, etc. Also, if you practice with your hands down, and you get fast enough to pull off the technique from that position, think of how much better you will be able to react if you can get your hands up in a real situation.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Look, for video purposes Mr. Tatum generally starts with his hands down. Probably because the majority of techniques, in the manuel, start out with the defender in a "neutral position". I have seen Mr. Tatum teach us to vary our starting position, and he has taught us many times to get our hands up if possible. He has also taught us several ways to do it, and not be so obvious, like scratching your head, etc. Also, if you practice with your hands down, and you get fast enough to pull off the technique from that position, think of how much better you will be able to react if you can get your hands up in a real situation.

I agree; however, "most people" will never be faster with their hands down than the attacker with their hands up. That is another problem with technique lines. Dummies as you call them slow there attacks down so the guy can do his tech. This causes people to be lulled into a false sense of security and speed; hence, the culture of the step through punch is passed on from student to student. (nobody's fault)
Sean