New Student: when will you quit?

[Diagen]

This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch. It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves. You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years. This is true even for experienced black belts. That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback.

I don't play hoops, but I do karate. I've kept it up since 1966, off and on, and consider myself more formidable now than when I was a 20 yr. old black belt. My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking." I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer. I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route.

Formal training doesn't make you good relative to the potential though. There's two ways of measuring good: relative to what's common, relative to the known best, and relative to the potential best. Potential best is difficult to determine as it tends to be well above what people imagine.

"has allowed me to "keep dunking" "
Haha this is what I'm talking about man. You have no sense of the principles of athleticism. There are basic ways of measuring human performance and you and many people here ignore them in favor of your EGO.
PURE EGO.
since you can't think about things rationally but only through ego let's go with this:
Do the 7 mobility checks and tell me how you do. When dumbbells are called for, tell me how much weight you use. For the hand to toe weighted stretch tell me how deep you can go as well. Stand on a box or something. Can you reach 1" depth? 3"?
I bet you that Day 1 when I did these exercises myself I did better than you. Hands down. You aren't athletic.
I bet I could probably powerlift more than you too. How much neck training and jaw training do you do? What kind of max effort isometrics do you do? Do you do jumps, sprints, anything like that? Clap push ups? Throwing? Pull ups?

 

[Diagen]

This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch. It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves. You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years. This is true even for experienced black belts. That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback.

I don't play hoops, but I do karate. I've kept it up since 1966, off and on, and consider myself more formidable now than when I was a 20 yr. old black belt. My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking." I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer. I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route.

The first mistake is in equating form and technique with martial arts. Most of martial arts is athleticism and mental presence or mental strength. If you disagree you have no grasp of the fundamental principles and are ignorant. If you agree then you aren't offended. By pure athleticism and mental strength, you will have the presence and prowess to dominate most anyone.
Can you recognize athleticism and mental strength, presence? Have you ever met someone with both?

How about Mike Tyson. Can you imagine fighting him? He got back into training again a couple years ago I think. What about Francis Ngannou? Can you even imagine it? How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed.
Everything about "form" you can learn from using your IQ in sparring, thinking about it, doing it, and training it. All you need is the capacity to observe, orient, plan, attack. Just use your brain. That's how you do it. There are mega loads of resources available online ffs but the impoverished soul or whatnot can't do jack ****.

 

[Diagen]

My mistake you're 60 like the other guy. I am not trying to pick on someone past 60 so answer some of the questions as if you we were talking when you were in your prime and doing more week to week.

 

[Diagen]

Can't even properly measure your athleticism in your prime now but how about you tell me what your black belts can do in calisthenics or any universal measure of performance.
I doubt all of their base athleticism. The most athletic of the bunch do something besides MA at wherever you train.
Since you train MA their horse stance times would contribute, and depth and width of feet and straightness of back.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The first mistake is in equating form and technique with martial arts. Most of martial arts is athleticism and mental presence or mental strength. If you disagree you have no grasp of the fundamental principles and are ignorant. If you agree then you aren't offended. By pure athleticism and mental strength, you will have the presence and prowess to dominate most anyone.
Can you recognize athleticism and mental strength, presence? Have you ever met someone with both?

How about Mike Tyson. Can you imagine fighting him? He got back into training again a couple years ago I think. What about Francis Ngannou? Can you even imagine it? How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed.
Everything about "form" you can learn from using your IQ in sparring, thinking about it, doing it, and training it. All you need is the capacity to observe, orient, plan, attack. Just use your brain. That's how you do it. There are mega loads of resources available online ffs but the impoverished soul or whatnot can't do jack ****.

You are embarrassing yourself with your posts. Your ignorance is overwhelming. You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash. Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy.

 

[Diagen]

You are embarrassing yourself with your posts. Your ignorance is overwhelming. You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash. Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy.

Credibility isn't the first thing to think about though. It's reasoning.
You don't know how to defend your beliefs because you don't know how to think about your beliefs.
If you can reason with someone you can talk to them. Credibility is below reasoning.
No form and technique isn't the most important thing about martial arts because every person with mental presence, work and strength can create technique and form even on the fly.
No form and technique isn't the most important thing because a child with perfect form and technique Cannot beat a grown man unless that man is severly weakened or disabled.
Form and technique isn't even Speed and Reaction Time. It isn't the mental strength and presence of mind to use it in a fight, know how to, respond to intimidation and fears, act in a chaotic scene, et cetera.
Whether Mike Tyson agrees or not depends entirely on social and emotional factors because my reasoning is sound. He doesn't like me? Then he disagrees with me. He doesn't like you? He disagrees with you. Same as what you're doing here.

 

[Diagen]

Tell me how someone who is slow, weak, and fragile is suppose to win in a fight. The only way is to gouge their eyes and crush/ pull their nuts. Brilliant martial arts man but that requires no form and rudimentary technique while assuming the other guy isn't moving into your range only to knock you out, or that he doesn't use a technique.

Just knowing techniques and the tactics involve shore up any weakness in the hypothetically stronger, faster, smarter, tougher fighter I am using to demonstrate how out of touch you and most traditional martial artists are. If you think traditional martial artists means you don't have to be the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest -- you're dragging it down and lowering its credibility.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Formal training doesn't make you good relative to the potential though. There's two ways of measuring good: relative to what's common, relative to the known best, and relative to the potential best. Potential best is difficult to determine as it tends to be well above what people imagine.

"has allowed me to "keep dunking" "
Haha this is what I'm talking about man. You have no sense of the principles of athleticism. There are basic ways of measuring human performance and you and many people here ignore them in favor of your EGO.
PURE EGO.
since you can't think about things rationally but only through ego let's go with this:
Do the 7 mobility checks and tell me how you do. When dumbbells are called for, tell me how much weight you use. For the hand to toe weighted stretch tell me how deep you can go as well. Stand on a box or something. Can you reach 1" depth? 3"?
I bet you that Day 1 when I did these exercises myself I did better than you. Hands down. You aren't athletic.
I bet I could probably powerlift more than you too. How much neck training and jaw training do you do? What kind of max effort isometrics do you do? Do you do jumps, sprints, anything like that? Clap push ups? Throwing? Pull ups?

You seem to think everything is a competition. If someone's not better than you on some specific measure you choose (or if you suspect they are not, based upon what you interpret in a post), they must be awful at everything related. That's pretty egotistical. Maybe "pure ego".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Tell me how someone who is slow, weak, and fragile is suppose to win in a fight. The only way is to gouge their eyes and crush/ pull their nuts. Brilliant martial arts man but that requires no form and rudimentary technique while assuming the other guy isn't moving into your range only to knock you out, or that he doesn't use a technique.

Just knowing techniques and the tactics involve shore up any weakness in the hypothetically stronger, faster, smarter, tougher fighter I am using to demonstrate how out of touch you and most traditional martial artists are. If you think traditional martial artists means you don't have to be the strongest, fastest, smartest, toughest -- you're dragging it down and lowering its credibility.

Your posts are so very full of assumptions about what others think. I can only suppose you've built this whole idea in your head of what martial artists think and do, and use it as a template when responding to others.

 

[Diagen]

You seem to think everything is a competition. If someone's not better than you on some specific measure you choose (or if you suspect they are not, based upon what you interpret in a post), they must be awful at everything related. That's pretty egotistical. Maybe "pure ego".

If they are not good at 10 different metrics you start to run out of metrics though. There are 7 in the kneesovertoesguy stuff, and he talks about a few more (split squat, sissy squat, nordic curl, foot lift). Then there are regular calisthenics stuff to consider. Well the coach I'm linking (kneesovertoes) has a mobility and strength check for the upper body as well that he's put his age old granny on and she's rehabbed from it to full mobility and function with quality of life strength.

I'm bring a whole perspective here.

Your posts are so very full of assumptions about what others think. I can only suppose you've built this whole idea in your head of what martial artists think and do, and use it as a template when responding to others.

I'm just repeating what I've been saying this whole damn time while people are arguing with me that I'm wrong or naive. I haven't assumed a damn thing.

His posts:
"This is why serious martial artists have a good, in-person, instructor, and so don't have to piece together from scratch. It is not possible for someone without considerable formal training to correct themselves. You don't know what you don't know, and we tend to gloss over bad habits that creep in over the years. This is true even for experienced black belts. That is the value of an instructor that can provide feedback."
"My karate training, with some weight training, has allowed me to "keep dunking." I could not have reached the level I'm at from anything youtube has to offer. I've learned from the best so have no need for the inferior route. "

"How did Mike train? For one, he mostly trained in the basics. Not what you want to think about I'm sure, like every new student at some dojo you don't want to imagine that "martial arts training" is a lot of physical exercise and not that flashy. Does someone need to be in the room to tell Mike Tyson how to do a neck bridge? How to jump rope? Did he need some world renown expert to tell him to throw a medicine ball at the ground and do it over and over again? Nope. His form sure as hell didn't need correction. Everything about Mike Tyson and most fighters is basic training. Anyone can knock you out without much technique, just physical power and speed."

And his reply:
"You are embarrassing yourself with your posts. Your ignorance is overwhelming. You have no credibility with most everyone here, including Mike Tyson if he were to read your trash. Please leave us out of your fantasy Youtube world and get some therapy."

0 dialogue, 0 reasoning, completely dismissive. Dude has no way to think about why he believes what he does, cannot respond to basic assertions about reality. Of course Mike Tyson trained mostly in physical conditioning. He got up every morning to run. He did tons of athletic training. Whether or not he uses good footwork or peekaboo, the heavy bag is building up his power. No matter what, he gets tougher and can learn from every fight/ match he goes through.

Where am I being assumptuous? Where is all dialogue being thrown out because I'm directly confronting their beliefs?

 

[Diagen]

I messed up the post a little, I am the one that started talking about Mike Tyson and basic training to clarify.

 

[geezer]

Where am I being assumptuous? Where is all dialogue being thrown out because I'm directly confronting their beliefs?

Hey, excuse me as I'm new to this thread and have been trying to catch up. Got this far. Never heard of the word "assumptuous", so I looked it up. It wasn't in most online dictionaries, but I finally found this:

Presumptuous vs Assumptuous - What's the difference?

wikidiff.com

Note that it simply states "Not English". In other words, it is an invented term, a garbled misunderstanding of "presumtuous". That's OK. I also make mistakes in writing all the time. But in this case, it is oddly reflective of your attitude towards the martial arts and sports. You seem to assume to know far more than the evidence would indicate.

You repeatedly deny the value of good coaching/instruction. Can you name any high level athlete that got there without good coaching? ...Because I sure can't think of any.

You repeatedly deny the value of developing great technique saying athleticism and physicality matter far more. No one denies the importance of athleticism and physicality in competitive sports, but especially in combative martial sports, like boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and so forth, top competitors in each weight class will approach a maximum personal limit as to strength, speed and athleticism. At that point superior skill and technique can be the tie-breaker, the decisive element.

That you continue to deny this and argue with some very experienced martial artists and athletes on this forum suggests that, perhaps, you are the fellow with ego issues here.

But on the bright side, this leads me to reconsider your use of the word "assumptuous". Apparently it does not yet exist in English, but maybe it should be a word as it describes your posts perfectly!

Consider the following proposed definition:

Assumptuous - Adjective. The quality of being both asinine and presumptuous at the same time.

 

[Flying Crane]

I bet you that Day 1 when I did these exercises myself I did better than you. Hands down. You aren't athletic.
I bet I could probably powerlift more than you too. How much neck training and jaw training do you do? What kind of max effort isometrics do you do? Do you do jumps, sprints, anything like that? Clap push ups? Throwing? Pull ups?

Maybe so. But I bet my dick is bigger than yours.

 

[Diagen]

Hey, excuse me as I'm new to this thread and have been trying to catch up. Got this far. Never heard of the word "assumptuous", so I looked it up. It wasn't in most online dictionaries, but I finally found this:

Presumptuous vs Assumptuous - What's the difference?

wikidiff.com

Note that it simply states "Not English". In other words, it is an invented term, a garbled misunderstanding of "presumtuous". That's OK. I also make mistakes in writing all the time. But in this case, it is oddly reflective of your attitude towards the martial arts and sports. You seem to assume to know far more than the evidence would indicate.

You repeatedly deny the value of good coaching/instruction. Can you name any high level athlete that got there without good coaching? ...Because I sure can't think of any.

You repeatedly deny the value of developing great technique saying athleticism and physicality matter far more. No one denies the importance of athleticism and physicality in competitive sports, but especially in combative martial sports, like boxing, wrestling, Judo, BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and so forth, top competitors in each weight class will approach a maximum personal limit as to strength, speed and athleticism. At that point superior skill and technique can be the tie-breaker, the decisive element.

That you continue to deny this and argue with some very experienced martial artists and athletes on this forum suggests that, perhaps, you are the fellow with ego issues here.

But on the bright side, this leads me to reconsider your use of the word "assumptuous". Apparently it does not yet exist in English, but maybe it should be a word as it describes your posts perfectly!

Consider the following proposed definition:

Assumptuous - Adjective. The quality of being both asinine and presumptuous at the same time.

lol you have misread what I posted, talk about intelligence. Correct grammar doesn't improve reading comprehension I know that much.
My entire point isn't about tie breakers. Why are you talking about similar weight class and as if everyone is a superb athlete in boxing and mma? They aren't. You have low and high athleticism in both sports. Your assessment of what I mean and what is going on in the world are both wrong.
Mike Tyson, since I've brought him up and is a good example, is not the standard of overall athleticism and physical power. He is top of his class. Francis Ngannou of UFC is top of his class in terms of power. Neither are normal for their weight class IN ANY WAY. Especially Mike Tyson, he was alive when everyone was a higher standard of boxer though so you may make the ASSUMPTION that that is the norm today and most pro fights of his weight class too. It isn't.
You're talking about 1 - 10 people or so in American Boxing in any given decade, you get that right? As if everyone were superb athletes with steel jaws in pro fighting HAHA. And the true greats just took it further and further. People like Mike Tyson are an absolute rarity in Boxing and their equivalent in MMA just isn't possible because it's much more complicated and it's a young "sport".
You don't have to be the best to win, just better than the competition.

Why would you assume that everyone going pro is reaching the limit of their potential? How would you even be qualified to judge that when you can't even address the weakness of everyone's athleticism, toughness, power, strength, reaction time?

You don't know what you don't know I guess! And that you don't know what you don't know is the point -- all of you seem to leave no gaps for interpretation or uncertainty. It's utterly moronic irony that you all accuse me of being presumptuous when you are all so presumptuous about Martial Arts, sport Fighters and Physical Prowess (Fitness) in general.
I make the least assumptions and thus I find all of you to be arbitrary. This is just how it is. You get that one who makes less assumptions would find others who make more to be quite arbitrary and irrational, right? I'm sure you understand and that is exactly where I am standing.

What you're noticing is the opposite of assumption. Whether you're experienced or not doesn't make you very good or the best. None of you will claim you can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, right? Or am I wrong? If so, you're all below the standard of Mike Tyson.

Of course I agree that good technique is good. I said myself that one with greater mental presence and strength, using their IQ and by practicing, can develop their own technique. Why would you write out a few paragraphs that have no relevance?

You also assume that one who is a great fighter and self-taught would compete in sports or flaunt it where everyone can see. You forgot about the existence of criminals and anti-social types haha! Big flashy publicity doesn't draw everyone. Might draw you or you ASSUME it does, but some are averse, neutral, or barely interested in such things.
Those who can train alone and are anti-social tend to be more single-minded in their pursuits. Hence MIKE TYSON. A criminal. An absolute beast that merely needed a goal and peekaboo. How many more of those types are out there without a coach? And of those, how many are looking at fighting info online and getting in fights with groups and armed folk with knives and guns? I assure you that not everyone needs a coach to watch their form and encourage them.

Anyone can research online basics and even set up a video camera or mirror. Anyone can develop a sense of their center of balance and of how stable or immovable it is. It's called a mind-body connection and anyone can develop it to a much higher degree than you give credit. I know this because I believe that there are very high extremes to such things.
I always assume that the potential is greater than what I can see with my eyes because I'm not ignorant.

 

[Diagen]

Maybe so. But I bet my dick is bigger than yours.

You'd be wrong

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Why would you write out a few paragraphs that have no relevance?

 

[Diagen]

I'm not sure what your intent is. Is it agreement or are you claiming it's an ironic statement?

 

[geezer]

lol you have misread what I posted, talk about intelligence. Correct grammar doesn't improve reading comprehension I know that much.
My entire point isn't about tie breakers. Why are you talking about similar weight class and as if everyone is a superb athlete in boxing and mma? They aren't. You have low and high athleticism in both sports. Your assessment of what I mean and what is going on in the world are both wrong.
Mike Tyson, since I've brought him up and is a good example, is not the standard of overall athleticism and physical power. He is top of his class. Francis Ngannou of UFC is top of his class in terms of power. Neither are normal for their weight class IN ANY WAY. Especially Mike Tyson, he was alive when everyone was a higher standard of boxer though so you may make the ASSUMPTION that that is the norm today and most pro fights of his weight class too. It isn't.
You're talking about 1 - 10 people or so in American Boxing in any given decade, you get that right? As if everyone were superb athletes with steel jaws in pro fighting HAHA. And the true greats just took it further and further. People like Mike Tyson are an absolute rarity in Boxing and their equivalent in MMA just isn't possible because it's much more complicated and it's a young "sport".
You don't have to be the best to win, just better than the competition.

Why would you assume that everyone going pro is reaching the limit of their potential? How would you even be qualified to judge that when you can't even address the weakness of everyone's athleticism, toughness, power, strength, reaction time?

You don't know what you don't know I guess! And that you don't know what you don't know is the point -- all of you seem to leave no gaps for interpretation or uncertainty. It's utterly moronic irony that you all accuse me of being presumptuous when you are all so presumptuous about Martial Arts, sport Fighters and Physical Prowess (Fitness) in general.
I make the least assumptions and thus I find all of you to be arbitrary. This is just how it is. You get that one who makes less assumptions would find others who make more to be quite arbitrary and irrational, right? I'm sure you understand and that is exactly where I am standing.

What you're noticing is the opposite of assumption. Whether you're experienced or not doesn't make you very good or the best. None of you will claim you can beat Mike Tyson in a fight, right? Or am I wrong? If so, you're all below the standard of Mike Tyson.

Of course I agree that good technique is good. I said myself that one with greater mental presence and strength, using their IQ and by practicing, can develop their own technique. Why would you write out a few paragraphs that have no relevance?

You also assume that one who is a great fighter and self-taught would compete in sports or flaunt it where everyone can see. You forgot about the existence of criminals and anti-social types haha! Big flashy publicity doesn't draw everyone. Might draw you or you ASSUME it does, but some are averse, neutral, or barely interested in such things.
Those who can train alone and are anti-social tend to be more single-minded in their pursuits. Hence MIKE TYSON. A criminal. An absolute beast that merely needed a goal and peekaboo. How many more of those types are out there without a coach? And of those, how many are looking at fighting info online and getting in fights with groups and armed folk with knives and guns? I assure you that not everyone needs a coach to watch their form and encourage them.

Anyone can research online basics and even set up a video camera or mirror. Anyone can develop a sense of their center of balance and of how stable or immovable it is. It's called a mind-body connection and anyone can develop it to a much higher degree than you give credit. I know this because I believe that there are very high extremes to such things.
I always assume that the potential is greater than what I can see with my eyes because I'm not ignorant.

I find your remarks positively assumptuous, my good fellow!

You'd be wrong.

How you would know this baffles me. Why you would post it baffles me even more.

 

[geezer]

I'm not sure what your intent is. Is it agreement or are you claiming it's an ironic statement?

I had the same question, but considering the context ...I'm guessing irony.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm not sure what your intent is. Is it agreement or are you claiming it's an ironic statement?

A mix. There are many people here, yourself included but not just yourself, that are typing out paragraphs unrelated to when/why new students quit martial arts. Which is fine, but made me laugh at this statement, so wanted to point out this statement both for yourself, and to emphasize for others.