New Student: when will you quit?

[Gerry Seymour]

I can take intensity, but I need an emphasis on fun--otherwise what's the point?

That't the point - it should be fun. Different people enjoy different things. I'm like you - if it's too serious, I'm going to lose interest eventually. But some folks love the deep, intense seriousness you see at other schools. It works for them, like laughter works for me.

Maybe my experience would be different if I had tried a different school. But you have to admit that there's a different culture with MMA at least. Read some of the posts on Sherdog or any other MMA forum. The constant flame wars between MMA and TMA where people talk past each other, completely missing the other persons point. Each side is stuck in their paradigm and can't see past it. Maybe you've seen some of those motivation images that show a bunch of overweight/old TMA black belts and compare them to young, ripped, BJJ black belts saying, "Now THESE are black belts"? It's not exactly uncommon.

I think you'll find there's a culture to most forums (fora?). The MMA folks here don't tend to have the same blinders about the difference between a 50-year-old hobbyist and a 30-something professional athlete. Sure, there are some who show up who have a cocky attitude, but that's true of any segment of MA (so isn't unique to MMA).

I worked with a guy who took MMA and he was pretty dismissive of my karate when I never tried to say it was any better than his sport of choice. It was like a football player getting upset that someone else plays soccer. Just crazy. Now I know karate has it's issues and I'd never deny that but there were things I liked about it. Things that had value to me. But I'm not going to tell someone else what they're doing has no value, that they need to "convert".

Yeah, you'll find folks like that in other areas of MA. Usually, it's whatever's in its ascendency (right now, that's MMA) that gets the most of them.

As for the machismo, you've got these superstars like Conor McGregor giving the sport a bad name. Michael Venom Page brags about breaking some guys orbital bone. See how Ronda Rousey got trashed after her loss to Holly Holm like she was nothing, because she was capable of losing. Lots of attitude you wouldn't see in the TMA side. Sure you've got humble guys too, I'm not say there aren't any, just that there's a culture there that a lot of guys buy into.

And this all just goes to my argument that there's a lot of baggage that goes with the juggling even on the MMA side.

I think you'll find that same machismo in any heavy-contact sport. It's in football, for sure. Certain kinds of folks are more drawn to certain activities. Just don't let it cause you to paint them all with that brush. Some of the MMA guys in here are pretty down-to-earth, even if they're always wrong about everything.

 

[Tez3]

Some of the MMA guys in here are pretty down-to-earth, even if they're always wrong about everything.

I'm glad you think I'm always right about MMA seeing as you think the guys are wrong!

 

[Headhunter]

Actually I would disagree. I think all martial arts suffer from it to some degree because of the large amount of identity that practitioners get from their art. Boxers and MMA artists are more likely to get caught up in hyper-masculinity than in Eastern traditions but the end result is the same. There's a role to be played. There's a hierarchy to be maintained. The craft is elevated to something almost mysterious. I've seen it on the faces of karatekas, BJJ'ers and boxers alike. As if they're lost in the fantasies and fears that motivate them.

I wouldn't speculate on the content of your classes and I'm sure there are schools out there that manage to avoid this kind of thinking. But I'm still convinced that's the exception not the rule. Once you replace the martial art with juggling, a lot of the silliness becomes clear.

Well you're wrong. Some do yes but most don't at all. I've taken time out of a few places and when I come back maybe there's either a light hearted joke made or nothing's said.

Sounds like you're just bitter about something

 

[mrt2]

Excellent post.

Mr. Jordan is an excellent teacher and has an excellent program for kids.
He is an 8th dan in Tiger Rock system. He understood why I was not happy with the system.
One of Mr. Jordan's teachers is a 4th dan Black Belt at 18 and only knows there progressive form.
I expect a black belt to know 18 forms as a minimum.
Jack Hwang in his 40's was only a 5th dan black belt, when he was my teacher back in the 70's.

Mr. Jordan understand why I wanted to quit and did not charge me the extra month he was due.
He also said I was welcome to watch my grandchildren.
Even though I was welcome I felt uncomfortable, that's my fault for feeling that way.
Your friend is probably just a little embarrassed, he did not stay with the program.
He probably still likes you, if not that's on him.

One of the secondary benefits of martial arts training is the social aspect of it. People of different ages, professions, and walks of life all training together 2, or 3 times a week. But a lot of times, the basis for the friendship is the training, and when that is gone, probably not much to talk about, sadly.

 

[Headhunter]

The BJJ place I tried was always so serious. God forbid you crack a joke in the middle of a roll. Everyone was so concentrated on being a bad-*** (or on winning?). So resplendent with the victory of BJJ over all other martial arts (at least in their minds). There was no appreciation of the basic absurdity of putting on Asian pajamas to roll around on the floor with other sweaty men and try to choke them. It took all the fun out of it.

Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?

That's fine if you want to think I'm just generalizing. I'm sure your experiences have led you to different conclusions. I haven't gone to every school out there but I've been to a few and for more than a couple classes. And each one had a mentality associated with it. Something you'd never find with juggling or stamp collection or some other hobby that people are less likely to get their identity wrapped up with.

Well sorry but some people do want to train seriously. If these guys are training for a competition they do want to focus on training not acting like clowns. When I'm rolling in bjj I'm focused on the roll because 1 I want to get better and 2 I'm focused on stopping a guy choking me out or putting me in a submission so yeah I'm not cracking jokes while trying to defend against submissions. But in drills yeah you can have a joke sometimes but rolling no that's the time to work

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Boxing I think needs a whole lot more LARPing than most martial arts. I mean karate LARPing is pretty harmless. But with boxing you have to overcome the basic common sense of what you're doing to your brain to keep going at it. How else to justify the huge health risks, unless you're living out your own private Rocky or Creed in your head? And I love boxing. How many people would become expert jugglers if every time they juggled, they risked real brain damage or death?
.

Perfect paraphrase of a quote from someone i saw about fighting. Fighting aint worth it unless your getting paid. Basically, no point in sparring full contact unless you are getting paid for it.

And you kind of risk brain damage when juggling pending what you juggle as it can land on your head if you mess up.

 

[Leviathan]

Well you're wrong. Some do yes but most don't at all. I've taken time out of a few places and when I come back maybe there's either a light hearted joke made or nothing's said.

Sounds like you're just bitter about something

Hi,

I can relate to Rick Franklin's in a way.

I see 2 main reasons for that:

- while tennis, basket ball, soccer etc. are definitely games confined to a playing field, martial arts aim at making you a better fighter and helping you out on the street kicking the bad guy's *** if need be. Since many action movies and series heroes are usually good at kicking bad guys' ***, you can connect the dots yourself and understand there may be a tendency for some MA practitioners to view themselves as the star / hero. Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.

- yes there definitely is a hierarchy in many martial arts: ever heard of belts with all their colors? The order you line up for bowing at the beginning and the end of the training... To some extent it's ok to organize the whole stuff. But a belt shouldn't be taken for more than what it is.

Kind regards

 

[Tez3]

Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.

Good grief no, we're British, we don't go around yelling about how good we are. We make jokes and self deprecating comments about ourselves. Macho lifestyle and being British doesn't go together though certain Scots may try a few growls now and again.
and before anyone says it Conor Mcgregor is not British he's Irish, from the south an entirely different country.

 

[Headhunter]

Hi,

I can relate to Rick Franklin's in a way.

I see 2 main reasons for that:

- while tennis, basket ball, soccer etc. are definitely games confined to a playing field, martial arts aim at making you a better fighter and helping you out on the street kicking the bad guy's *** if need be. Since many action movies and series heroes are usually good at kicking bad guys' ***, you can connect the dots yourself and understand there may be a tendency for some MA practitioners to view themselves as the star / hero. Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.

- yes there definitely is a hierarchy in many martial arts: ever heard of belts with all their colors? The order you line up for bowing at the beginning and the end of the training... To some extent it's ok to organize the whole stuff. But a belt shouldn't be taken for more than what it is.

Kind regards

Lol what a load of nonsense. First no martial arts goal isn't all about making you a fighter. Some styles like boxing and Mma yes but others like karate, taekwondo, Krav Maga etc it isn't about that it's about defending yourself and other styles are more internal and second you say about other sports like football etc. Well they have hierarchy to. They have captains and managers and coaches and different leagues that they play in.

Have I ever heard of belt ranks?....umm yeah I think everyone knows about belts in martial arts....the belts are for the teachers to know what level the students are at and its a way to break up the ciriculum and yeah some places are arrogant about but they're the exception not the rule most places are totally fine and relaxed

 

[mrt2]

Hi,

I can relate to Rick Franklin's in a way.

I see 2 main reasons for that:

- while tennis, basket ball, soccer etc. are definitely games confined to a playing field, martial arts aim at making you a better fighter and helping you out on the street kicking the bad guy's *** if need be. Since many action movies and series heroes are usually good at kicking bad guys' ***, you can connect the dots yourself and understand there may be a tendency for some MA practitioners to view themselves as the star / hero. Sounds ridiculous? They'll publicly say "yes" but - as a result of a life long conditioning - may think otherwise into themselves.

- yes there definitely is a hierarchy in many martial arts: ever heard of belts with all their colors? The order you line up for bowing at the beginning and the end of the training... To some extent it's ok to organize the whole stuff. But a belt shouldn't be taken for more than what it is.

Kind regards

Yes, sounds ridiculous. Practicing sparring while wearing head gear, chest protectors and shin and instep guards against your class mates is a heck of a lot different from a street fight. Moreover, movie fights are fake and I would wager anybody with more than a few months experience of sparring could see that and would be more careful engaging "bad guys" in the street.

 

[Tez3]

First no martial arts goal isn't all about making you a fighter. Some styles like boxing and Mma yes

Arguably you could say that boxing and MMA makes you a competitor as much as anything, fighting just happens to be the way you compete.

 

[Rick Franklin]

Yes, sounds ridiculous. Practicing sparring while wearing head gear, chest protectors and shin and instep guards against your class mates is a heck of a lot different from a street fight. Moreover, movie fights are fake and I would wager anybody with more than a few months experience of sparring could see that and would be more careful engaging "bad guys" in the street.

I definitely agree there's a huge difference between sparring and street fights. No argument there. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't make much sense to study martial arts for self defense. I don't expect many people here to agree with me, but here's my reasoning.

First of all, it's incredibly unlikely for most people to get violently attacked in their daily lives. If it's some drunk fool, you don't need much more than a good cross punch and a little sparring experience, right? Certainly not years of training. The reality is, if you're attacked it's probably someone who is stacking the cards in their favor. They're not looking for a fair fight. They either have a knife, or a gun, or a bunch of friends, or 50 pounds of muscle more than you. In any of those cases, you're better off giving them your wallet and/or running for you life. If I were seriously worried about being attacked on the street, I should get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get a license to carry it on my person.

To me, the only reason to practice a martial art is because it's fun.

 

[Rick Franklin]

And you kind of risk brain damage when juggling pending what you juggle as it can land on your head if you mess up.

Touche.

 

[Headhunter]

I definitely agree there's a huge difference between sparring and street fights. No argument there. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it doesn't make much sense to study martial arts for self defense. I don't expect many people here to agree with me, but here's my reasoning.

First of all, it's incredibly unlikely for most people to get violently attacked in their daily lives. If it's some drunk fool, you don't need much more than a good cross punch and a little sparring experience, right? Certainly not years of training. The reality is, if you're attacked it's probably someone who is stacking the cards in their favor. They're not looking for a fair fight. They either have a knife, or a gun, or a bunch of friends, or 50 pounds of muscle more than you. In any of those cases, you're better off giving them your wallet and/or running for you life. If I were seriously worried about being attacked on the street, I should get a gun, learn how to shoot it and get a license to carry it on my person.

To me, the only reason to practice a martial art is because it's fun.

Yeah you're right I don't agree at all. So you're saying that someone who trains on a regular basic punches, kicks, takedowns, submissions or whatever is going to be at the same level in a street fight as some fat guy who sits on the couch all day?

To me from your posts you sound extremely bitter about martial arts for some reason

 

[Rick Franklin]

I think you'll find that same machismo in any heavy-contact sport. It's in football, for sure. Certain kinds of folks are more drawn to certain activities. Just don't let it cause you to paint them all with that brush. Some of the MMA guys in here are pretty down-to-earth, even if they're always wrong about everything.

That's reasonable. No, I wouldn't assume all MMA guys are like that.

 

[Rick Franklin]

Yeah you're right I don't agree at all. So you're saying that someone who trains on a regular basic punches, kicks, takedowns, submissions or whatever is going to be at the same level in a street fight as some fat guy who sits on the couch all day?

I'm saying the concept of a street fight is a myth and to assume you're ever getting into a street fight, in the conventional sense, is dangerous. It ignores the very real possibility that guy can pull a knife while you're trying to choke him out. Or he can pull out a gun and shoot you after you knock him down. Or maybe you'll be beating him to a pulp when his friends show up. Being in great shape and a great martial artist doesn't help you with those situations. It's not worth putting your life on the line. Ever.

 

[Rick Franklin]

To me from your posts you sound extremely bitter about martial arts for some reason

I like martial arts, I just don't like all the baggage that it can come with.

 

[Tez3]

I'm saying the concept of a street fight is a myth and to assume you're ever getting into a street fight, in the conventional sense, is dangerous. It ignores the very real possibility that guy can pull a knife while you're trying to choke him out. Or he can pull out a gun and shoot you after you knock him down. Or maybe you'll be beating him to a pulp when his friends show up. Being in great shape and a great martial artist doesn't help you with those situations. It's not worth putting your life on the line. Ever.

I'm not sure that you understand what fights are like outside of a training environment, how easily they can start between people especially when alcohol is involved. I've seen and broken up quite a few, not by myself but with colleagues. You seem to be basing your opinion on films and television programmes. Fights can be totally random, with most involved not setting out to fight.

I like martial arts, I just don't like all the baggage that it can come with.

As you seem to have so many problems in so many different places I'm thinking the one with the baggage is you not the places you've been training at.

 

[Rick Franklin]

I'm not sure that you understand what fights are like outside of a training environment, how easily they can start between people especially when alcohol is involved. I've seen and broken up quite a few, not by myself but with colleagues. You seem to be basing your opinion on films and television programmes. Fights can be totally random, with most involved not setting out to fight. .

I've never been in a street fight. I don't know anyone who's been in a street fight (at least not that they told me). My opinion is based on footage I've seen of real fights, some statistics and news articles.

I'm sure you're heard about how easy it is for a single punch to kill someone. I think there was a young high school girl it happened to recently, scuffling with her classmates. I believe it was just a shove too and the girl who did it is getting charged as an adult. Once I saw police footage of a cop who was knocked over by a handcuffed perp. He knocked his head against the floor and was paralyzed for life. Martial arts wouldn't have helped him there. Maybe you saw the footage of that guy who was yelling at a motorist for parking in a handicapped spot when he was knocked to the floor by the driver's boyfriend. He pulled out a gun and shot the guy. Martial arts wouldn't have helped the boyfriend there.

There are lots of videos of "street fights" where one guy is winning until some random stranger in the crowd (or a friend of the loser) steps in and soccer kicks or sucker-punches the winner. Hard to be prepared for stuff like that. Locally I remember reading a news story of a couple hanging out a bar when a stranger smacks the girl's butt. The husband makes a scene but it turns out the stranger was a cop and was there with a bunch of buddies. They beat him to a pulp. I don't think martial arts would have helped him out.

Now, I'm sure for every instance I've listed here you could come up with several where two guys fought and no knives or guns or buddies showed up. I'm not debating that happens. My point is that it COULD go the other way and therefore, it's not worth it.

As you seem to have so many problems in so many different places I'm thinking the one with the baggage is you not the places you've been training at.

I know personal attacks are a staple of internet discussions everywhere, but I hope you'll excuse me if I don't respond to yours.

 

[Tez3]

I know personal attacks are a staple of internet discussions everywhere, but I hope you'll excuse me if I don't respond to yours.

That wasn't a 'personal attack' it was an observation made because of your seeming inability to not find something wrong with every place you have trained. Think about it, one of you, many martial arts places but it's never you who is the problem...…….. I'd suggest you don't go in with an empty cup.

I've never been in a street fight. I don't know anyone who's been in a street fight (at least not that they told me). My opinion is based on footage I've seen of real fights, some statistics and news articles.

You are putting your theoretical knowledge up against peoples actual knowledge and experience, can you be surprised if you are incorrect? the footage you see of fights doesn't follow the fights from before they started, the monkey dance part so all you see is the stupid bit.

I'm sure you're heard about how easy it is for a single punch to kill someone.

Mate, I haven't 'heard' but I have had to take statements and deal with so called 'one punch' incidents. Only one died luckily. Trust me, I've seen and dealt with all sort of fights, I've walked nay run away from fights and I've picked up the pieces after fights. I used to work with people who loved a fight, who often had people pick on them just to start a fight and some who would fight among themselves just for the craic.

Martial arts wouldn't have helped him there

Really, what do you actually think we learn in martial arts? It's not all punching and kicking, we teach awareness as well as how to avoid being hit ( I always like that bit, most people do) and how to avoid altercations to start with.

There are lots of videos of "street fights" where one guy is winning until some random stranger in the crowd (or a friend of the loser) steps in and soccer kicks or sucker-punches the winner.

And? that proves martial arts doesn't work does it? or does it prove there are idiots who drink too much or who are just complete morons. Martial artists don't go around brawling which is basically what you are describing. The fights are rarely random and usually can be avoided by sensible people. Muggings and attacks are a completely different thing.

The husband makes a scene

If he'd been a martial artist he would have assessed the situation, knowing that it was more than likely that man wasn't on his own and even if it makes him look like a coward he would have taken his wife out of the bar and away from there. Discretion is the better part of valour.

Now, I'm sure for every instance I've listed here you could come up with several where two guys fought and no knives or guns or buddies showed up. I'm not debating that happens. My point is that it COULD go the other way and therefore, it's not worth it.

No I'm not, I'm going to say get some time in, stop watching fights on videos and get some real life experience, stop trying to tell experienced martial arts why you think they are wrong because while you are glued to a screen, we're training.