New Journey to an Old Style

[isshinryuronin]

I'm piggy backing off another thread with a similar name (excuse the plagiarism, Simon) but from a completely different direction.

As a kid we may have read the adventurous entertaining tales of Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn or The Little Prince. But if we picked them up many years later after years of experience, additional education and a with a better understanding of life, we see beyond the simple plot and discover what is not clearly written. Reading them again now, these books offer keen observations of society and human nature. It's almost like reading a new book!

TMA is much like this, I think. Once we have gotten 2nd, 3rd or 4th dan the TMA book is well familiar to us, perhaps even a little boring. It's just the same words and basic plot over and over. But if we read it again with new eyes, as if it's the first time we're turning the pages, a different story emerges offering new insights and excitement. It's like learning a new style.

I think if we start from scratch sort of like a white belt in a new style (but with the internalized experience we've gained over the years of study and practice), we may discover things we didn't notice on the first go-around. "Re-read" the stances, punches, blocks, kicks, stepping, combinations, kata, etc. But just don't do them by rote the same way you always did. Do it with the spirit that they're brand-new moves. Doing this kind of revision every 6-10 years or so will invigorate your "old" style, molding it into something fresh, better, "new." A good book is meant to be re-read.

Have you done something similar? What insights did you gain?

 

[Xue Sheng]

First.....Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn or The Little Prince...really.....what is wrong with you...as a kid I was reading Karate Illustrated and Kung Fu magazine and martial arts books by Bruce Lee and Yang Jwing Ming... or is this just me

Yes, I reread things all the time, rereading Wing Chun books at the moment. Also reread; Chinese Gung Fu: The Philosophical Art of Self Defense, Shaolin Long Fist Kung Fu Sparring Forms by Yang Jwing-Ming & Jeff Bolt, etc.

But there are also martial arts related books I reread quite often (Zen in the martial arts, The Secret of Inner Strength, Living the Martial Way, etc.) and generally get a different insight each time

 

[_Simon_]

Haha I will expect a cheque in the mail for compensation

Very well said, and it's something I'm finding for sure.

After years in my new style I had been recently going back to my roots a bit and absolutely I'm seeing it in a new light with my new experience. I could now explore it in a fresh way. To keep it from being too general and getting more specific, after last few years in Goju I'm returning to a few fight nights and kumite seminars in my full contact, hard karate roots. I could now understand why they emphasised certain things, and moreso I could actually see the aspects of softness there, whilst not heavily emphasised there was receiving, yielding, soft redirection etc, it wasn't all "hard". And I could also spar with my newfound approach and more relaxed, natural way of moving, which was wonderful to be able to apply it in the old context. I learned a great deal seeing the old from new perspectives and also in approaching it in a newfound spirit.

I like that, "Do it with the spirit that they're brand-new moves." Even within our system I never take for granted the earlier stuff. I still perform our first kata Gekisai Dai in that light and I'm still discovering some awesome insights into it. And I've often said this, every single time you do a kata, or even a punch, it is never, ever the exact same kata or technique. It literally is always fresh. Like never jumping into the same river twice . Even if some may feel it's too repetitive, there is always something new to glean and explore.

But it depends heavily on your mindset and spirit of inquiry. Too often I see very high ranking karateka disparaging even surface level techniques, not realising the context in which it's practiced or even why it's drilled and emphasised. I guess it happens in many spheres of life, the further experienced you are in a particular field, the closed off you can become to other ways of seeing it or other methods of approach regarding the same topic.

 

[hoshin1600]

From a literary perspective, this is why I have a library. When my mind craves a topic of investigation, I have the resources on hand and it's better than Google.
As for my martial art, I keep a thousand questions in my head and every so often I find an archeological puzzle piece that was missing that holds an answer to one of those questions. I then go about integrating that into what I do.
One lesson would be that if your going to follow this method you have to be willing to allow strongly held beliefs to be uprooted and replaced. This applies right down to the axiomatic core.
I would also say that you need to have an independent mind set. Let go of your teachers. I know for myself for a long time I could hear my teachers voice in my head, "hands up, fingers together, your elbows are too wide". To gain new perspectives you need to put this aside and be your own master. To follow the same path brings you to the same destination. I wouldn't advise this method to a newer student but if you have decades of training it may be the only way to actually progress. I have seen many legit 8th, 9th and even 10th degree promotions to individuals who have been doing the exact same thing for 30 years or more.
Which is perfectly acceptable if your trying to pass down an art in a preserved state. But that is not the topic at hand.

 

[Badhabits]

I get the analogy with books- there are several I re read every few years and get something new out of them each time. But I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this for martial arts assuming you consistently practice your fundamentals as you go. How do you revisit something in a fresh light if you never left it in the first place? You have your epiphanies and ah ha moments and see things in new ways as you go but that doesn't sound like the question at hand. Maybe the closest I've come to this is when switching styles and and the new style provides a fresh perspective on what you've done previously. I could see if someone thought they'd " moved past " the fundamentals and stopped training them, then revisited years later.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Have you done something similar? What insights did you gain?

No, I have not. I'm not bored yet.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this for martial arts assuming you consistently practice your fundamentals as you go.

Good questions. To your first one above:

just don't do them by rote the same way you always did.

Practicing the same way every time will give you the same result each time which leads to stagnation and boredom, like a singer or stage actor who recites the same lines hundreds of times. I've seen 3 or 4 youtube clips of a singer doing live performances and each version of was noticeably different. I think for best results and growth every performance should be approached like opening night, seeing the part/song/kata in a fresh light. This brings us to the second (Zen like) riddle.

How do you revisit something in a fresh light if you never left it in the first place?

You can't. Just like you can't add to a cup that's already full. You have to empty it first. In MA technique, you have to leave the way you've always done it and revisit it like it's a new technique (mushin, empty mind). Maybe it will turn out the same, but maybe not. Maybe better or not as good. Sometimes you have to revisit it many times over the years to get what your brain and body tell you is an improvement, which may be only a 2% subtle change in how you do it. Often, that can result in a 10% better result. Aha moments come naturally as you advance, but sometimes you have to work and search for them in places you haven't explored.

be your own master. To follow the same path brings you to the same destination. I wouldn't advise this method to a newer student

Agree, especially the last part. At some advanced point you have to start teaching yourself. This doesn't mean you have to discard your style's or sensei's teachings and re-invent the kata or system. Just integrate them into the way you move and express them with your individuality. The concept I'm talking about in my post is not making up a new word, just pronouncing it with your unique accent. When you and your system harmonize in this way a good thing happens.

 

[Badhabits]

Good questions. To your first one above:

Practicing the same way every time will give you the same result each time which leads to stagnation and boredom, like a singer or stage actor who recites the same lines hundreds of times. I've seen 3 or 4 youtube clips of a singer doing live performances and each version of was noticeably different. I think for best results and growth every performance should be approached like opening night, seeing the part/song/kata in a fresh light. This brings us to the second (Zen like) riddle.


You can't. Just like you can't add to a cup that's already full. You have to empty it first. In MA technique, you have to leave the way you've always done it and revisit it like it's a new technique (mushin, empty mind). Maybe it will turn out the same, but maybe not. Maybe better or not as good. Sometimes you have to revisit it many times over the years to get what your brain and body tell you is an improvement, which may be only a 2% subtle change in how you do it. Often, that can result in a 10% better result. Aha moments come naturally as you advance, but sometimes you have to work and search for them in places you haven't explored.


Agree, especially the last part. At some advanced point you have to start teaching yourself. This doesn't mean you have to discard your style's or sensei's teachings and re-invent the kata or system. Just integrate them into the way you move and express them with your individuality. The concept I'm talking about in my post is not making up a new word, just pronouncing it with your unique accent. When you and your system harmonize in this way a good thing happens.

I think I get what you're saying. So would "playing" with your techniques and such in various ways be an example of this? Rather than just repeating the same ole kihon the same way over and over.
I read somewhere that martial arts training should " inform your general movement ", that sounds to my ears like what you're saying in your last paragraph. I like this concept. One of the other threads was discussing rooting and stability. It got me thinking about all the time I spend throwing a cast net off the bow of our small boat. When it's choppy out there and the boats rocking, you have to stay rooted to the bow or you fall off while throwing the net. What you learn from that "informs" your martial arts and vice versa.

 

[Buka]

Even though I haven’t done a Kata in fifty years, I still use a Seisan-dachi stance when I’m standing on anything that’s moving.

Still works quite well.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think I get what you're saying. So would "playing" with your techniques and such in various ways be an example of this? Rather than just repeating the same ole kihon the same way over and over.

Exactly. These are subtle variations such as how you pivot, weight transfers, hip rotation, amount of tension, the "feeling" you have during execution, etc. Eventually the perfect combination comes about. This may take weeks or years, in some cases decades.

I still use a Seisan-dachi stance when I’m standing on anything that’s moving.

Many times I'd see a student with too narrow a stance (seisan, our standard stance) which of course is weak in side-to-side stability. I'd give them a firm sideways push and 9 out of 10 times their front foot would automatically adjust to regain their balance, ending up in a perfect stance. The body "knows."

 

[Fungus]

But if we read it again with new eyes, as if it's the first time we're turning the pages, a different story emerges offering new insights and excitement. It's like learning a new style.
...
Have you done something similar? What insights did you gain?

I like your post, and unlike you I am a beginner in MA so i can not related to DAN experiences, but I can related to what you suggest in general from other fields.

From a life-long dedication and passion for understanding the world we live it, how things really work, interconnect and WHY, I remember my journey in of inquiry in natural sciences such as chemistry and physics. In the early phase, you have many questions, learn many things from teachers and books, but many questions remain unanswered.

What I learned reanalyzing some things, reflecting upon how i was thinking about things originally, is a few insights

1) Sometimes (and in fact very often) the questions I constructed as a novice was flawed, that is why they weren't possible to answer => The quest is instead to find the correct questions, which is essentially the same as to say that the journey or more important than the goal, beacuse the goal is always changing.

2) My old teachers/book, didn't always have all answers to the refined questions, so the answers is sometimes to just keep my own questioning, it's the best service to the art or science I can offer. Everything that is interesting often has "open question" which noone can answer. So I have come to accept that.

3) During any journey the actual steps - "the path" - is itself often uncertain. You take one step at a time, and be guided in the moment. This is more likely to lead you right, than insist on following a preconception of the correct path from traditional paradigms.

I try to follow same ideas in my early MA journey, I am more interested in getting insight and understanding than to follow tradtional path. But just like in science, there are "traditional paths" which is learning classical mechanics, statistics etc. But eventually you also see what is flawed with it, and why a new paradigm is needed. (This regards open problems in physics specifically. But when asked my odl teachers about this way back, I think not all understood, or had some idea that you need to learn first what is the old way, even if it is flawed, but there are problems with that approach because you can easily spend a lifetime to learn the traditional system. Sometimes the solution is not to tweak the tradition, by to replace it with a new paradigm. I few of my teachers did understand but had no answers, and these are highly regarded as I think back.

 

[Gyakuto]

I think I get what you're saying. So would "playing" with your techniques and such in various ways be an example of this? Rather than just repeating the same ole kihon the same way over and over.

This is a very ‘Western’ way of doing things as we tend to lack the resolve and sheer bloody-minded determination to training repetitively until we get things correct. I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, ‘One kata every three years’ (kata hitotsu sannen) suggesting we train each kata solely for three years before moving on to another.

Then there’s ‘Shu Ha Ri’ (守破離) in which the levels of learning are described and which roughly means ‘first rote learn, then detach and modify, and finally transcend and innovate new techniques’. Few people ever surpass the Shu stage.

Then there’s ‘Hyakuren Jitōku’ roughly meaning ‘100 forgings (repetitions) [leads to] perfection’ suggesting that (rote) repetition leads to perfection.Performing about 100 repetitions of any technique in each training session is really tough and forges a strong resolve as well as technique.

The Japanese (Eastern) temperament seems to lend itself to these ideas and if you’ve ever compared a Japanese Budoka’s simple straight punch or downward sword cut to a someone who’s used Western methods, I’m pretty sure you’ll see the difference.

Very few Westerners have the temperament to train like this, in my opinion.

I read somewhere that martial arts training should " inform your general movement ", that sounds to my ears like what you're saying in your last paragraph. I like this concept. One of the other threads was discussing rooting and stability. It got me thinking about all the time I spend throwing a cast net off the bow of our small boat. When it's choppy out there and the boats rocking, you have to stay rooted to the bow or you fall off while throwing the net. What you learn from that "informs" your martial arts and vice versa.

Remember the story of Funakoshi Gichin standing in kibadachi atop the roof of a thatched hut, in a typhoon holding a straw mat aloft like a sail, trying to stay firmly rooted in place? When a Budoka walks around her environment, she doesn’t waddle from side to side, with toes pointing at ‘10 and 2’ and weight back on her heels, but keeps her core engaged and uses it to enable precise martial deportment deportment.

 

[Gyakuto]

I have the calligraphy for Hyakuren Jitōku in the hall of my house.

 

[Gyakuto]

Many times I'd see a student with too narrow a stance (seisan, our standard stance) which of course is weak in side-to-side stability. I'd give them a firm sideways push and 9 out of 10 times their front foot would automatically adjust to regain their balance, ending up in a perfect stance. The body "knows."

Well, every stance has a profound weakness (‘suki’ 隙 ). For example in yoko seishan, a very slight shove from the front (dorsoventrally) will unbalance the victim. In say, left tate seishan, a diagonal push from the right will cause most people to tense up and stagger.

The Karoddy of three-legged aliens will be incredibly stable!

 

[O'Malley]

This is a very ‘Western’ way of doing things as we tend to lack the resolve and sheer bloody-minded determination to training repetitively until we get things correct. I’m sure you’ve heard the saying, ‘One kata every three years’ (kata hitotsu sannen) suggesting we train each kata solely for three years before moving on to another.

Then there’s ‘Shu Ha Ri’ (守破離) in which the levels of learning are described and which roughly means ‘first rote learn, then detach and modify, and finally transcend and innovate new techniques’. Few people ever surpass the Shu stage.

Then there’s ‘Hyakuren Jitōku’ roughly meaning ‘100 forgings (repetitions) [leads to] perfection’ suggesting that (rote) repetition leads to perfection.Performing about 100 repetitions of any technique in each training session is really tough and forges a strong resolve as well as technique.

The Japanese (Eastern) temperament seems to lend itself to these ideas and if you’ve ever compared a Japanese Budoka’s simple straight punch or downward sword cut to a someone who’s used Western methods, I’m pretty sure you’ll see the difference.

Very few Westerners have the temperament to train like this, in my opinion.


Remember the story of Funakoshi Gichin standing in kibadachi atop the roof of a thatched hut, in a typhoon holding a straw mat aloft like a sail, trying to stay firmly rooted in place? When a Budoka walks around her environment, she doesn’t waddle from side to side, with toes pointing at ‘10 and 2’ and weight back on her heels, but keeps her core engaged and uses it to enable precise martial deportment deportment.

To be frank, I think we Westerners tend to romanticise the traditional Japanese teaching model too much. The "100 rote repetitions" method is the slow boat to China and contradicts basically everything we now know about learning. Even the Japanese have moved on to modern teaching methods in most fields, including sports, to improve performance.

It's not even "that" traditional as the sh'te/uke model of koryu is much more hands on and alive, with an experienced practitioner giving constant feedback (more like 1 on 1 coaching). Rote repetitions became popular through mass instruction in schools and military academies.

It can have some value in training endurance and focus or proprioception but as far as skill development goes it is truly an inferior methodology.

 

[Fungus]

To be frank, I think we Westerners tend to romanticise the traditional Japanese teaching model too much. The "100 rote repetitions" method is the slow boat to China and contradicts basically everything we now know about learning. Even the Japanese have moved on to modern teaching methods in most fields, including sports, to improve performance.

I see you guys interpreted the posts differently that I did.

I didn't see a contradiction between such repetition and creativity.

Once you have found the right tweaked technique after playing. Then I would still think training it "thousand times" is the way to get it into muscle memory and body. This is how I train some techqniues where I had to adapt, I found some ways to do it, that re a bitt off standard, but they work for me. Then I try to train that variant on the heavy back. If do the same same technique say 40 times weekly, then after a 6 months I have trained this around 1000 times, then I may start to feel confident and fluent about it.

I used this method for some tweaked version of ushiro geri, and spinning heel kick. I do this every single time at the heavy bag. The purpose is to get fluent and this, increase speed, power and balance when doing it. I am getting better and better. Every now and then I try the "standard method as well" but find that it gets me pain and does not work for me.

It would be pointless for me to train the "standard version" 1000 times when i feel it does not float my boat.

 

[_Simon_]

I like your post, and unlike you I am a beginner in MA so i can not related to DAN experiences, but I can related to what you suggest in general from other fields.

From a life-long dedication and passion for understanding the world we live it, how things really work, interconnect and WHY, I remember my journey in of inquiry in natural sciences such as chemistry and physics. In the early phase, you have many questions, learn many things from teachers and books, but many questions remain unanswered.

What I learned reanalyzing some things, reflecting upon how i was thinking about things originally, is a few insights

1) Sometimes (and in fact very often) the questions I constructed as a novice was flawed, that is why they weren't possible to answer => The quest is instead to find the correct questions, which is essentially the same as to say that the journey or more important than the goal, beacuse the goal is always changing.

2) My old teachers/book, didn't always have all answers to the refined questions, so the answers is sometimes to just keep my own questioning, it's the best service to the art or science I can offer. Everything that is interesting often has "open question" which noone can answer. So I have come to accept that.

3) During any journey the actual steps - "the path" - is itself often uncertain. You take one step at a time, and be guided in the moment. This is more likely to lead you right, than insist on following a preconception of the correct path from traditional paradigms.

I try to follow same ideas in my early MA journey, I am more interested in getting insight and understanding than to follow tradtional path. But just like in science, there are "traditional paths" which is learning classical mechanics, statistics etc. But eventually you also see what is flawed with it, and why a new paradigm is needed. (This regards open problems in physics specifically. But when asked my odl teachers about this way back, I think not all understood, or had some idea that you need to learn first what is the old way, even if it is flawed, but there are problems with that approach because you can easily spend a lifetime to learn the traditional system. Sometimes the solution is not to tweak the tradition, by to replace it with a new paradigm. I few of my teachers did understand but had no answers, and these are highly regarded as I think back.

Very well said! Especially asking the right questions, or asking quality questions, as that then forces you to look at where your question is coming/stemming from. To me a good question points you in a direction, a trajectory, rather than just giving a concrete answer. It provokes inquiry and discovery... and allows you to grow in the process of uncovering the answer

 

[Badhabits]

Exactly. These are subtle variations such as how you pivot, weight transfers, hip rotation, amount of tension, the "feeling" you have during execution, etc. Eventually the perfect combination comes about. This may take weeks or years, in some cases decades.

Many times I'd see a student with too narrow a stance (seisan, our standard stance) which of course is weak in side-to-side stability. I'd give them a firm sideways push and 9 out of 10 times their front foot would automatically adjust to regain their balance, ending up in a perfect stance. The body "knows."

Having resistance against your stance and or techniques is a huge help. The makiwara is very good for this. My heavy bag is outside, due to weather/humidity it's much heavier and harder than it ought to be- swinging it away from you and hitting it as it comes back, or just letting it slam into you while in a stance gives very good structural feedback. My daily regimen consist of alternating between the makiwara, heavy bag and a double end bag. The differences in how each reacts to being hit and what your body does as you alternate between the three- there's something about it that really seems to fine tune your technique.
Lift your rear heel while hitting the double end bag, no problem. Hit the makiwara the same way and it'll show if your connection to ground through the ball of the rear foot sucks. If you only hit the double end bag or pads on someone's hands, due to lack of resistance you might never know that youre just lifting the heel and not actually pushing the ground with ball of the foot properly. Then you start focusing on pushing off that foot and really gaining some power.

 

[Fungus]

Smilar confusion exists here I just noticed if you see reader comments

Sanchin. The Three Battles of Kyokushin Karate

Sanchin no Kata made it’s way into Kyokushin Karate through the founder, Sosai Masutatsu (Mas) Oyama. Sosai Oyama had a background in various arts, including 4th Dan in Shotokan, 4th Dan in Judo, Taikiken, Aikijujutsu, as well as a 7th Dan Black Belt in Goju-ryu, under Gogen Yamaguchi. Sanchin...

the-martial-way.com

Indeed on the picture of Sosai himself (and I habe seem that before)

it looks like that shotokan sanchin, not the current kyokushin version.
I know they change things, perhaps they change things from the picture to present?
But there has to be a reason for this. Someone must know why.

Even in the "The shodan" kyokushin book, by shihan Howard Collins the prescription there is both feet angled. But it does not seem consistent with how Oyama himself did it.

(I have also another related question here about the stability of uchi uke, when i play with this myself, my feeling is that the distance from body where to "lock" your arms, should be related to where your lower arm muscles meet your lattisimus dorsi? - that is a natural stopper, or so it seems ot me?

At least it maximum stability is a design princiuple? And then people have different muscles sizes, so guides about elbow one fist from the body, referring to which part of hte body, the side or the front? It's quite ambigous. I have received corrective feedback in class, where I feel that the arm and lattisimus dorsi loose contact and this I loose ALOT of stability. To the point where the only sensible solution would be an morote uchi uke, to compensate. Then I can't helpt wondering, what I am missing. Or is it perhaps the individual adjustements that the instructor is missing?? What do you think? It is ALOT esier to learn something if you get solid explanations.

All these similar small things in about everything is going on in my head, and I am honestly a bit annoyed to only get superficial teachings similar to "watch me, mimic me". I think there must be someone, somewhere that can explain constructing principles for moer techniques. Is there perhaps a good book for this, that focus on such principles rather than historical developments? The books I have mainly DESCRIBE, in words and pictures, but you can you read from a PICTURE of VIDEO, these constructing principles. Especially when practitioners wear baggy gi's that conceals precise body relations and contact points.

But this can be for another thread... )

 

[Gyakuto]

To be frank, I think we Westerners tend to romanticise the traditional Japanese teaching model too much.

Yes you’re probably right…

The "100 rote repetitions" method is the slow boat to China and contradicts basically everything we now know about learning. Even the Japanese have moved on to modern teaching methods in most fields, including sports, to improve performance.

Iaido is very traditional and these new methods of teaching have yet to filter through, perhaps.

It's not even "that" traditional as the sh'te/uke model of koryu is much more hands on and alive, with an experienced practitioner giving constant feedback (more like 1 on 1 coaching). Rote repetitions became popular through mass instruction in schools and military academies.

Ah yes, that’s something I read about in the excellent ‘Koryu Bujutsu’ edited by Diane Skoss (p.26)

It can have some value in training endurance and focus or proprioception but as far as skill development goes it is truly an inferior methodology.

Like everything, the middle way is usually best.