New and improved description

[Bob Hubbard]

Yiliquan1,
we welcome just about anyone who can play nice...and we're always open to new suggestions, etc. (don't mean we do em all, but I'm always ready to entertain a different idea. Sometimes, it takes a bit for it to be time to do somethings, ya know?)

Peace.

:asian:

 

[disciple]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Ami Tou Fou!

Chiduce:
What arts are you studying? As far as I know this phrase is used only by shaolin monks

salute

:asian:

 

[disciple]

Originally posted by Dronak


It seems to me that we're swinging from one side (primarily health) to the other (primarily fighting).

I know...that's my intention

Tai chi was first created for fighting art not for health exercise...

salute

:asian:

 

[Dronak]

Yes, I think most of us here know that tai chi was originally developed for fighting. The health benefits came from practicing it as a martial art. Later on though, as I understand it, the simplified forms and such were developed specifically for health reasons; to keep the Chinese population in good health. The reason tai chi is popular nowadays is because of the health benefits. I think both should be included in the definition because both are important aspects. That's why I didn't want to swing from one side to the other -- the two parts really go hand in hand and should have equal representation.

As for putting fighting before health or health before fighting, *shrug*. I figured I'd keep the health aspect first because that's what everyone is familiar with. It just seemed more natural to start with what everyone knows and then add to that. Maybe that's because of my teaching experience, I'm used to building up from what students already know instead of just throwing new stuff at them right away. However, if you'd prefer to swap the sentences I had and re-word them slightly, I don't really care. My suggestion was mainly just an attempt to include both health and fighting about equally in the definition.

 

[arnisador]

I think we're iterating to a good solution. I see Dronak's point but for this board I like martial first, even though I believe many more people practice it for health than for self-defense (and certainly that's on-topic here).

Let me try to modify the most recent proposal:

Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are belived to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.

I prefer the simple Tai Chi to T'ai Chi, T'ai Chu`i Ch'uan, Taijiquan, etc. Anyone have strong feelings to the contrary?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

As a couple of asides:

-we can use a longer, more descriptive uh, description as a "What is Tai Chi, and whats with all the different spellings?", etc type post that we make sticky (so it sticks to the top of the forum) as a mini-FAQ.

-anyone else see the humor in trying to balance a description for an art known for dealing with balance?

Personally, I like the dual emphasis. I would love to see both the 'practical' applications as well as the health benifits discussed here. Maybe a longer description which is then summarized into the 70 words or so?

Just tossing in my 2cents. I think you folks are doing a great job on this.

:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by disciple



Chiduce:
What arts are you studying? As far as I know this phrase is used only by shaolin monks

salute

:asian:

Not exactly; a lot of practitioners, sifu and soke etc, use it. Just like domo arigato etc,. I have received letters from soke and other sifu using this phrase. Sifu chris on the shaolin arts forum which switched to msn communities also uses it regularly. My sifu will say buddha bless you at times in english. I'am currently studying the techniques of zen kempo-jitsu, chen hsin tou shou, and white crane qi gong. I have also been introduced to northern praying mantis kung fu and yoshin ryu jujutsu. I currently teach, Clandestine Black Dragon Kenpo Karatejutsu and Butokutsuru Ryu Kenpojutsu of which i'am founder of the latter system. If you want to know a lot more about the systems, my bio, lineage etc,. Please click on the www icon beside Profile under Chiduce! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Dronak]

Originally posted by arnisador

I prefer the simple Tai Chi to T'ai Chi, T'ai Chu`i Ch'uan, Taijiquan, etc. Anyone have strong feelings to the contrary?

Not strong feelings, no. Tai chi is probably the most common spelling so using it alone should be fine. I wouldn't object to putting in Taiji, too, though as the other primary spelling of it. The ones with the apostrophes and stuff you really never see. If you want to use Taijiquan instead of just Taiji, I'd suggest using Tai Chi Chuan instead of just Tai Chi so that the two spellings are for the same words. Tai Chi / Taijiquan don't match up exactly. Basically I'm saying that I'd limit it to those two spellings if we are going to use more than one -- Tai Chi (Chuan) and/or Taiji(quan).

 

[disciple]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz


-anyone else see the humor in trying to balance a description for an art known for dealing with balance?
:asian:

Yeah...
How about try putting it into the description? Maybe the yang symbol represent the martial art and the yin symbol represent the health exercise? Or the other way around...

For the spelling, to be precisely correct, just use the chinese character :rofl:

salute

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Not exactly; a lot of practitioners, sifu and soke etc, use it. Just like domo arigato etc,. I have received letters from soke and other sifu using this phrase. Sifu chris on the shaolin arts forum which switched to msn communities also uses it regularly. My sifu will say buddha bless you at times in english.

Not trying to be overly critical, but the use of foreign language terms by Americans is a particular pet peeve of mine.

I live and teach in Japan. I have studied Mandarin Chinese as well as Japanese to better educate myself in the pronunciation and use of the terms that are part of my training.

Domo arigato is not just a phrase. In common use it means the same as "thank you very much," and it is very polite in context. It is common in a Japanese dojo for the students to say this at the end of class, thanking their instructor for passing on his knowledge. It is not the same as the phrase you use - one is polite courtesy, one is religious blessing.

The term soke is not a common term in Japanese at all. In fact, it has only been finding use in the US, and then typically only by people that are already misusing foreign language titles...

Terms like sensei, sifu, shihan, sigung, renshi, hanshi, kyoshi and others are so often misused that our Asian counterparts whose languages we are mangling find great humor in our attempts at mimickry.

Sensei means, literally, "one who has gone before." It is commonly used to display respect to martial arts teachers of Japanese or Okinawan arts. It is not correct to use for a Chinese martial art teacher (unless he is teaching in Japan, as I do, and the native language is Japanese) nor a Korean martial arts teacher. The term is used also for school teachers, attorneys, doctors, dentists, and others who have great skill and experience; it is not an exclusively martial term.

Sifu or Shihfu (Cantonese and Mandarin, same word) are used to refer to a martial arts teacher in a similar sense as sensei is used in Japan.

The terms shihan, kyoshi, renshi, and hanshi are never used as forms of address, but are used in written form only. Thus, meeting a guy that called himself "Hanshi Bob" is a huge no-no. The same goes for that make-believe word, soke. :angry: And anyone that demands to be called "master" anything should be smacked in the head with a blunt object... :hammer:

 

[Tachi]

I give it a thumb's up.

Tachi

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



Not trying to be overly critical, but the use of foreign language terms by Americans is a particular pet peeve of mine.

I live and teach in Japan. I have studied Mandarin Chinese as well as Japanese to better educate myself in the pronunciation and use of the terms that are part of my training.

Domo arigato is not just a phrase. In common use it means the same as "thank you very much," and it is very polite in context. It is common in a Japanese dojo for the students to say this at the end of class, thanking their instructor for passing on his knowledge. It is not the same as the phrase you use - one is polite courtesy, one is religious blessing.

The term soke is not a common term in Japanese at all. In fact, it has only been finding use in the US, and then typically only by people that are already misusing foreign language titles...

Terms like sensei, sifu, shihan, sigung, renshi, hanshi, kyoshi and others are so often misused that our Asian counterparts whose languages we are mangling find great humor in our attempts at mimickry.

Sensei means, literally, "one who has gone before." It is commonly used to display respect to martial arts teachers of Japanese or Okinawan arts. It is not correct to use for a Chinese martial art teacher (unless he is teaching in Japan, as I do, and the native language is Japanese) nor a Korean martial arts teacher. The term is used also for school teachers, attorneys, doctors, dentists, and others who have great skill and experience; it is not an exclusively martial term.

Sifu or Shihfu (Cantonese and Mandarin, same word) are used to refer to a martial arts teacher in a similar sense as sensei is used in Japan.

The terms shihan, kyoshi, renshi, and hanshi are never used as forms of address, but are used in written form only. Thus, meeting a guy that called himself "Hanshi Bob" is a huge no-no. The same goes for that make-believe word, soke. :angry: And anyone that demands to be called "master" anything should be smacked in the head with a blunt object... :hammer:

I understand your point hear; yet this type of addressing and phrasing has been going on for many years. Would not you think that if the asian martial arts community thought that is was so bad that they would introduce some new type of standard for the phrases and addressing for the international martial arts community at large? You have members on this forum address themselves as shihan, hanshi etc. I'am pretty sure that they are well respected stylists, founders. etc, within the martial community! In America there is a lot of freedom; hey! Well, just my thoughts here. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Matt Stone]

So to get it back on topic...

I think Arnisador's re-write was dead on:

Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.

I agree with Kaith that no discussion regarding Taiji is complete without both practical applications as well as esoteric benefits.

:samurai: :tank:

 

[Matt Stone]

I understand your point hear; yet this type of addressing and phrasing has been going on for many years.

Because it has been going on for many years does not make it acceptable. I suppose the only real problem with the incorrect use of titles stems from the misrepresentation that occurs with unethical instructors attempting to pass themselves off as something they aren't. It seems the trend in recent years to found your own system, promote yourself (as founder) to the highest rank in that system, then give yourself an important sounding title in the language of the country of origin the alleged new style is purportedly from.

I guess it is an issue of acceptable ignorance. If a person doesn't know, and doesn't know they don't know, it isn't their fault. If they know and don't care, that is something else entirely. Ignorance of ignorance is tolerable. Ignorance in the face of knowledge is unacceptable.

Would not you think that if the asian martial arts community thought that is was so bad that they would introduce some new type of standard for the phrases and addressing for the international martial arts community at large?

Why does the martial arts community have to make rules for a person to use another language properly? If you speak English, there are rules for the use of certain terms and titles. Likewise in other languages. For example, in Japanese you refer to a person as Lastname-sensei, not Sensei Lastname (as it would be done in English). It is slightly humorous to hear non-Japanese speakers using that form with no awareness of why. Even moreso when the titles used are used incorrectly. If I held a PhD, would you call me:

a) Dr. Stone, PhD
b) Dr. Stone
c) Doctor of Philosophy Stone
d) PhD Stone

(A) is appropriate for a signature in written correspondence. (B) is correct for spoken address. (C) and (D) are incorrect and would sound silly if heard spoken or read in a letter.

You have members on this forum address themselves as shihan, hanshi etc. I'am pretty sure that they are well respected stylists, founders. etc, within the martial community!

That's fine. They may well be respected martial artists. Their skill and knowledge of their fighting arts is not in question. Just the cultural and linguistic knowledge of the background of their arts is questionable.

In America there is a lot of freedom; hey! Well, just my thoughts here. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Freedom begets responsibility. Responsiblity requires attention to detail. If a person claims to be an instructor of a traditional Japanese style, then his title, forms of address, names of forms, name of the style, etc., should be consistent with that claim. If he calls himself Hanshi Sifu Bill of Oopi-kai-chuan, then folks should politely point out that he sounds like a fraud...

Professional instructors should act professionally, and that includes such minor details as history and language. We Americans have a habit of eliminating certain details we feel are unimportant, but if we are claiming to be passing on a centuries old tradition fully intact, then those details we feel are unimportant may well have been critically important for the person who created the tradition we claim to pas on...

:soapbox: No more soapbox for me. I've said what I needed to say. Back to Tai Chi now...

 

[Tachi]

Did we ever come to a consensus on the new description? Sorry I haven't voiced a lot given my 2 cents worth on the description, but I really think you all have had great input...and if you look back at the posts, everyone seems to be saying the same thing...the main conflict is how to organize it.

If I may suggest...we have a knowledgable mediator on this board who can put everyone's ideas together in a nice package...then we can go on with learning more about Tai Chi itself instead of trying to figure out how to describe it.


Just my humble opinion


Tachi

 

[Bob Hubbard]

ok, anyone want to rework it a bit more, or should we go with this:

Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

Ya got my vote!

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

It seems that the term freedom has been twisted a bit to fit the needs of and individual rather than defined as it's actual meaning! Then there is also the mention of frauds. Why would someone want to point out fraud if they were not hiding anything themselves. I'am not making accusations here, just trying to see some type of pattern. So, there exists different levels of freedom in which a citizen must earn. This does not exclude expression. Yet, it seems that this expression should also be earned; that is to, achieve a level of honorable humility and respect for self to show this same virtue in addressing others. Try this example out for size. Since, i was a military soldier and served my country well and received a proper discharge. I'am a real citizen of this country and others which did not serve are just wanabe second classers. My military background makes me a first classer! Thus, my martial arts background makes me a real artist and others possible frauds. Sometimes the dragon gets so caught up in himself that he flies low and the tiger reaches up and pulls him out of the sky. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Freedom begets responsibility. Responsiblity requires attention to detail. If a person claims to be an instructor of a traditional Japanese style, then his title, forms of address, names of forms, name of the style, etc., should be consistent with that claim. If he calls himself Hanshi Sifu Bill of Oopi-kai-chuan, then folks should politely point out that he sounds like a fraud...

Professional instructors should act professionally, and that includes such minor details as history and language. We Americans have a habit of eliminating certain details we feel are unimportant, but if we are claiming to be passing on a centuries old tradition fully intact, then those details we feel are unimportant may well have been critically important for the person who created the tradition we claim to pas on...

:soapbox: No more soapbox for me. I've said what I needed to say. Back to Tai Chi now...

 

[Matt Stone]

It seems that the term freedom has been twisted a bit to fit the needs of and individual rather than defined as it's actual meaning!

According to Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, the definition(s) are:

1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care> d : EASE, FACILITY <spoke the language with freedom> e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom> f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>
2 a : a political right b : FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE
synonyms FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated <freedom of the press>. LIBERTY suggests release from former restraint or compulsion <the released prisoner had difficulty adjusting to his new liberty>. LICENSE implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may connote an abuse of freedom <freedom without responsibility may degenerate into license>.

Perhaps the literal meaning of freedom is not what I am discussing. Working in the legal profession, it is a given that there is not, nor ever will be, total freedom without a certain degree of responsibility. I am not free to take what I like, do as I like, speak as I like, because there are certain restrictions against such things - I may not steal, kill, or slander, though it could be said that being unable to do these things hinders my free expression...

Whatever.

If you look further down you will see that the word "license" is a synonym of "freedom," and you will see that it is connected to the irresponsible interpretation of what freedom means. It is with such "license" that instructors and practitioners that either know no better, or simply don't care enough to be correct (or whose egos would be bruised by the touch of humility incurred when they drop their fancy and improper titles) go about insisting to be referred to by inappropriate terms.

Then there is also the mention of frauds. Why would someone want to point out fraud if they were not hiding anything themselves.

Do you mean to infer that because I fail to tolerate the misuse and abuse of titles due to multilingual ignorance that I am somehow attempting to hide skeletons of my own? How so might that be? Fellow instructors of my system are referred to, both by our teacher and their students by the term sifu, but I refuse to allow myself to be referred to in that way. Why? Because sifu literally means "master teacher/father," and I am far from being worthy of such a title. Sure, in the US, that title just means "teacher" to most. But to me it doesn't because I know better. It may suit them and others to make use of that term, but English is my native tongue and I have no need of foreign languages to authenticate and validate my training. If they insist on a title, Mister is fine. Not "master," nor any of an assortment of other honorary designations. I only allow my Japanese students to refer to me as sensei because in Nihongo (which a good portion of our class is conducted in) that is the term that is appropriate for a teacher...

Your comment lacks depth. You should have thought that through before posting it. If I point out theft, does that mean I am hiding theft of my own? If I point out a murder, does that mean I am killing as well? Not hardly, though that is the logic you are following in your post...

So, there exists different levels of freedom in which a citizen must earn.

No, they don't have to earn it, just exercise a degree of responsibility when using their freedoms...

I am perhaps not the most objective person regarding your comparison between civilians and veterans. Being both a veteran as well as being currently on active duty, having served in the Infantry and Cavalry and currently serving in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, I feel that if a person feels strongly enough in their convictions regarding the direction the State takes, they should also feel the conviction strongly enough to place themselves in the line of fire... Failing to do that displays a lack of conviction, and makes some overly patriotic rhetoric ring false in my ears... I did not trust Bill Clinton to make sound military decisions as he lacked first hand knowledge of what a soldier/sailor/airman/marine/coastguardsman sacrifices at the will of the President. Had he not had good advisors, I think the mistakes he made would have been far more numerous and severe in their effect.

While I don't feel being military or having served makes a veteran a "first classer" as you termed it, I do think it provides them with a unique perspective that is lost on a civilian. Civilians discuss budget cuts, pay cuts, cost of living cuts, not realizing that their alleged comparison with civilian corporations falls short - last time I checked, Con Agra employees don't deploy, get involuntarily separated from their families, get shot at, blown up, driven over, bombed, they don't conduct their business in the rain, the mud, the snow, they don't get hit with Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons, they can't be prosecuted for telling their boss "no," etc. So when they talk about making me make due with a substandard weapon, substandard equipment, and low pay because my "civilian counterpart" makes the same amount... I think they lack perspective.

As for my martial training making me better than another? Hardly. However, I can spot a fake, I can spot a con man, I can spot a scam when I see one. I know when I am talking with the "real deal," or with someone who got his certificate from his own printer...

Sometimes the tiger is so busy looking up in the sky trying to catch the dragon, that he forgets to remember the dog who is moving in to rip out the tiger's belly...

:samurai: :tank:

 

[arnisador]

The description looks good--and it was truly a group effort, which pleases me! There's a little bit of many people's ideas in it.

Since Tai Chi (not T'ai Chi) is used in the description, maybe change the forum name to match (i.e. drop the apostrophe)?