New and improved description

[Dronak]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If I held a PhD, would you call me:

a) Dr. Stone, PhD
b) Dr. Stone
c) Doctor of Philosophy Stone
d) PhD Stone

(A) is appropriate for a signature in written correspondence. (B) is correct for spoken address. (C) and (D) are incorrect and would sound silly if heard spoken or read in a letter.

Sorry to be kind of picky, but given what you wrote I'd say only B is correct because A is redundant. I'm pretty sure that when signing your name with a title that can be used as either a prefix or a suffix (so to speak), you choose one or the other, not both. So for the title of PhD/Doctor, you would write Dr. [Matt] Stone or Matt Stone, PhD, but not Dr. [Matt] Stone, PhD. That's using the same title twice and as I learned things, that's not correct. I'll have a PhD in about a year or so if all goes well, so I'll have to decide whether I'll use the title as a prefix or suffix when writing my name, if I choose to use it at all.

To get things back on topic, since the thread keeps wandering, Kaith's post for the description sounds pretty good to me. And as arnisador said, it was a nice group effort. I suppose if we really wanted to, we could debate over "The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects . . ." (bold face mine). Are the effects perceived in one's mind as "believed" tends to imply or are they real, actual effects? If they're real, saying "have" instead of "are believed to have" is better. I thought I read that there were some studies done to show that the practice of tai chi does have measureable effects on the body. Probably things associated with a relaxed state like slowed breathing and heartbeat, but I don't have books to check at hand. This would indicate they are real effects, not believed effects. However, this is starting to get a little picky. I think I'd prefer just "have effects" though to imply they're real and not just something we think happens, that tai chi practicioners are just hallucinating about the benefits of this art or something.

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



No, they don't have to earn it, just exercise a degree of responsibility when using their freedoms...

I am perhaps not the most objective person regarding your comparison between civilians and veterans. Being both a veteran as well as being currently on active duty, having served in the Infantry and Cavalry and currently serving in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, I feel that if a person feels strongly enough in their convictions regarding the direction the State takes, they should also feel the conviction strongly enough to place themselves in the line of fire... Failing to do that displays a lack of conviction, and makes some overly patriotic rhetoric ring false in my ears... I did not trust Bill Clinton to make sound military decisions as he lacked first hand knowledge of what a soldier/sailor/airman/marine/coastguardsman sacrifices at the will of the President. Had he not had good advisors, I think the mistakes he made would have been far more numerous and severe in their effect.

While I don't feel being military or having served makes a veteran a "first classer" as you termed it, I do think it provides them with a unique perspective that is lost on a civilian. Civilians discuss budget cuts, pay cuts, cost of living cuts, not realizing that their alleged comparison with civilian corporations falls short - last time I checked, Con Agra employees don't deploy, get involuntarily separated from their families, get shot at, blown up, driven over, bombed, they don't conduct their business in the rain, the mud, the snow, they don't get hit with Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons, they can't be prosecuted for telling their boss "no," etc. So when they talk about making me make due with a substandard weapon, substandard equipment, and low pay because my "civilian counterpart" makes the same amount... I think they lack perspective.

As for my martial training making me better than another? Hardly. However, I can spot a fake, I can spot a con man, I can spot a scam when I see one. I know when I am talking with the "real deal," or with someone who got his certificate from his own printer...

Sometimes the tiger is so busy looking up in the sky trying to catch the dragon, that he forgets to remember the dog who is moving in to rip out the tiger's belly...

:samurai: :tank:

Ok, Stone; lets cut the bull. I feel that you think that you know better than others. Just because you feel that your system or your training somehow is better. You have that right. Now; i'am also a vet and served in both the army and the corps. You seem to be very biased toward anything which does not tickle your fancy. Now, lets first get some things straight. You and nobody else can spot a fraud. It is only your perception. It may be right or could be wrong. In some martial arts systems , there are no right or wrong answer or techniques! Just a base set to pull from. Maybe you have studied 10 years before getting your dan ranking or longer or maybe not. I studied 23 yrs. before i got mine. You can't con a con! You earn freedom. If you do not, it's expression is always warped into your perceptive reality. Picking the child out with the bomb, or terrorist on a suicide mission is mostly luck and prayer. Virtue takes practice, and more practice! I do not down any martial artist, style, or system; instructor, or practitioner. Each one has something to offer the community, such as yourself. If i sound a little harsh, i do not mean it. I just do not accept others being played upon because of what they have learned. Yes. i'am a little shocked to hear your type of reasoning about such things in this day and era. Yet; it is you. Maybe you should keep an open mind and accept others in the same light. By the way, this is not well thought out also! Why, because it is from the heart and not the mind. The heart runs the person and the mind runs the body. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Dronak

Sorry to be kind of picky, but given what you wrote I'd say only B is correct because A is redundant.

Thanks for the correction. You are, of course, 100% correct. I had just come from class, and was worn out after a long work day as well. Should have proofed my work better before sending it.

Thanks again!

:samurai: :tank:

 

[disciple]

Sometimes the dragon gets so caught up in himself that he flies low and the tiger reaches up and pulls him out of the sky...

Sometimes the tiger is so busy looking up in the sky trying to catch the dragon, that he forgets to remember the dog who is moving in to rip out the tiger's belly...

These are quite funny actually...anybody else can add to that?

salute

:asian:

 

[Matt Stone]

"Sometimes the dog forgets the owner didn't take the leash off and he gets choked out in front of a cute poodle?"

:samurai: :tank:

 

[arnisador]

I believe that Tai Chi has well-established health benefits, but the specific benefit of 'reducing stress" might be hard to measure and I don't know if it is one of those. hence, "believed" may be most accurate, though we don't need to use weasel words here.

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Ok, Stone; ... Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

I didn't come here to engage in fights. Everything remained a perfectly open debate, a presentation of differing viewpoints backed by opinion and facts, but then you started to get a little personal... :ticked:

I never said that my system, methods or training were superior to anyone or anything else's. I apologize if I gave the impression that I was saying that :asian:. Obviously, we all feel whatever we are training in is the best, otherwise we would be training in something else. But never once did I point out another style being inferior in its technical content in comparison to mine.

As for the comments I made regarding the use of Chinese and Japanese language titles, I do feel that I know better than some others. This comes from having misunderstood the use of those titles, and from having native speakers make corrections. It also comes from having members of another forum (www.e-budo.com), all of whom practice varying traditional Japanese arts, provide information and instruction on the proper use of such titles. If you were to go there and tell them you are free to use whatever title you wish, regardless of its appropriateness or not, I am sure you would find more than a few who disagree... :argue:

So in the ongoing spirit of training and instruction, when I see someone misusing such titles, I give them the benefit of my knowledge and experience and try to correct their improper use of such titles. If you were in the military, I am sure you are familiar with "on the spot" corrections, are you not? If they take offense to that, then it seems they take issue not with my correcting them, but with doing things properly. :2pistols:

You began speaking about the "right and wrong" of techniques in different styles. Again, I never addressed this issue, nor even hinted at it. Perhaps you are trying to illustrate the varied nature of martial arts practice, and that there are many ways to do one thing. However, I am not talking about something so abstract as technical variations on technique, but rather something much more standardized - language. Specifically, languages spoken by millions of people in their own homes, but frequently misused by non-native speakers trying to sound authentic through the use of certain (often improperly applied) terms.

You implied that I am somehow insulting, or "down"ing, other systems and instructors by pointing out their flaws. You stated that virtue takes practice. Perhaps these flawed instructors and systems should practice their virtue and accept that they may be wrong and could stand for a little correction.

You made comments about identifying terrorists, and referenced some reasoning of mine that you cannot understand. The comments were confusing and left me wondering what it was you were trying to say. Feel free to email me or PM me, and we can discuss them off forum.

Arnisador said all were welcome as long as they played nice. I have every intention of complying with that.

I will not reply to this portion of the thread again. :flushed:

Thanks for helping me grow!

:samurai: :tank:

 

[Dronak]

I agree that it would be kind of hard to measure stress reduction. That's more of a feeling a person has than something that can be measured in numbers. But there are other health aspects that can and apparently have been measured and regular practice of tai chi tends to make those numbers better. If I dig around, I can probably find some book with a few details. Like I said, I was starting to get picky. The definition is basically fine. I was just wondering if it's going to sound like the health benefits are illusionary rather than real, measureable effects. If everyone thinks it's OK as it is now, we can go with it.

 

[Matt Stone]

Can we get a posted rewrite again? Or is this the most current version:

Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.

I used to teach Taiji at a hospital for cardiac rehab and post-surgical rehab of hip/knee/etc. replacements. There is documentation on the benefits of Taiji, especially for the elderly, and the effect of Taiji practice on balance, cardiac development, etc.

Just not sure where to find it... A lot of help I am, huh?

:samurai: :tank:

 

[arnisador]

I too believe that the evidence in favor of Tai Chi is documented, for e.g. arthritis. In fact I recall reading a study (yes, the actual journal article) about a study showing fewer hip injuries from falls in elderly individuals who practice Tai Chi.

Self-reported stress is of course measurable, and exercise in general is a known stress-reliever. I think the real question is, is stress the health benefit to hype?

I'm OK with it as it is!

 

[Matt Stone]

I used to be a certified massage therapist once upon a time. One of the biggest selling points to massage therapy as preventive medicine is its effect on stress... Hard to beat a good rub down for a rough day at the office!

However, as much as stress has been linked to so many killer conditions, it still sounds "fluffy." And that kills the reputation massage therapy (the legitimate stuff, not the lace panties and baby powder kind) is trying to build - it is too "new age" and too "fluffy" for people to trust it.

I think the same goes for Taiji. There are so many people in martial arts in general that talk about the combat effectiveness of the arts they have studied or created but never used in a fight, that it pulls the believability quotient into the mud. If we stick to only stress relief as a big defining point on Taiji, we are going to sound as if we are wholly in the "goober camp," for lack of a more tolerant term.

Sure, stress relief is a huge portion of what many of the health bennies stem from, but to focus on it, at least to my mind, seems to "fluff" the fact that any other kind of exercise can provide similar stress reduction - aerobics, weight lifting, running, etc. So, if we focus on the martial aspect and the things that are more specific bennies of Taiji practice (increased proprioception, heightened balance and movement fluidity, etc.), I think it makes Taiji sound a heckuva lot more legitimate...

Just my 2 yen.

:samurai: :tank:

 

[Dronak]

Stress relief is what led me to tai chi to begin with, not combat. And most people are familiar with tai chi as an art that promotes health more so than fighting skills. Yiliquan1, we're changing the definition so that it's not wholly health related. That was the main reason this topic came up -- we wanted to say something about the fighting aspects of tai chi. I don't think we need to emphasize the stress relief or health benefits in the description, but I think they should be kept as part of it. The last posted definition is basically fine with me. All I was bringing up, which I admit is getting kind of picky, was the wording about "are believed to have effects" which kind of implies the effects are imagined or in some way not real. We just think they happen. But there are real, measureable effects and so I think just "have effects" would be fine. We're basically discussing one verb here, so it's not really that big of a deal.

 

[Matt Stone]

I got into Taiji by way of my main art, so it was accidental for me. I didn't deliberately seek Taiji out for any particular reason.

I think the posted definition looks good, and I would agree that your orientation on the "belief" or "fact" of the stress reduction should be fixed somehow.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.

Thank you everyone for your input on this. I realize theres a lot of room to expand on this, and explain and explore the diferent aspects of the art, both martially, and medically. I ask that rather than continuing the debate here, you start a few new threads and pick up the topics there (but refer back here for the root parts).

Once again, thank you all.
:asian:

 

[Chiduce]

Originally posted by disciple



These are quite funny actually...anybody else can add to that?

salute

:asian:

Disciple; actually the dragon paraphrase is directly from a quote of wisdom to all martial artist's whom would choose to learn the way. The late shaolin kenpo teacher; Sifu Padreo owns the rights to it. He was a humble man of great knowledge! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

 

[Tachi]

Thank you, Kaith - it the description sounds great.


Tachi

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Tachi

Thank you, Kaith - it the description sounds great.

And best of all, it was a group effort! Nearly everyone contributed something to it.

 

[disciple]

Originally posted by disciple

I am rather disagree about the tai chi description on the first page, cause its only explains about the relaxation and body exercise without inserting tai chi's combat value in it.

salute

:asian:

Not Anymore

salute

:asian:

 

[tonbo]

Hey, just wanted to chime in on the debate and subsequent result:

The new description *rocks*!!

It's good to finally educate people a bit more about Tai Chi. It is too often seen as just a "workout", "new age", or "old person's" art......

So few know the truth....

Nice work, to all those involved!!

:asian:

Peace--

 

[happyguy]

I agree with disciples' definition.While there is a greater emphasis on the health aspects , in order to get a "complete meal ", you must be willing to approach the combative aspects of the art . In that sense , it's a truly functional art . I think it's amusing , personally, that when people observe sparing sessions , they are so amazed that "strength" is used . The truth is , it takes more than qi and wishful thinking to move another body . It's the way strength is used that's important .