Nearest thing to....

[Doc]

Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo
I would say the most closely related would be Kung Fu San Soo.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

In my opinion, Mr.O'Briant is correct. Commercial Kenpo's "sister" art, commercial San Soo, share a very strong structural and historical relationship. And just like Kenpo, San Soo has more than one interpretation. One very public, and others not.

 

[Brother John]

Commercial Kenpo's "sister" art, commercial San Soo, share a very strong structural and historical relationship.

Just wondering why this is, what the structural and historical relationship(s) may be.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Brother John
Just wondering why this is, what the structural and historical relationship(s) may be.

Thanks

Your Brother
John

The historical relationship between commercial kenpo and San Soo is rather well documented and has a primary influence traceable to Ed Parker. Ed Parker met James “W.” Woo in Northern California, convinced him to move south, and shared a relationship, with Woo teaching Tai Chi, etc in Parker’s school. He also was providing significant input for Parker’s “Secrets of Chinese Karate.” The two shared much information with each other, but it is important to recognize James “W.” Woo was well versed in Yang Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Choi Lai Fut, Southern Mantis, Northern Shaolin, etc.

Parker also had a relationship with James “H.” Woo (originally Chin Siu Dek) who followed Parker’s lead and similar structure for a commercial self-defense art. Jimmy H. adjusted his family art (Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung) to San Soo and focused on personal self-defense like commercial Kenpo for profit and expansion. In December of 1962 Jimmy officially held the grand opening for his martial arts studio in the Midway Shopping Center in El Monte, CA. In the early years he called it “Karate-Kung Fu” because like "kenpo," no one knew what kung fu was. San Soo is “technique based” and utilizes a similar Japanese ranking and belt system. An unusual anomaly, just like Kenpo is as well, for a Chinese Art, but tends to be more in-depth than conceptual commercial kenpo.

Like Parker, and Jame H., James “W.” Woo was forced to call his art when he opened his school in 1961 “Karate/Kung-Fu” the same way Parker tacked on “Karate” to Kenpo for commercial consumption.

Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery, 1st generation black belts under Parker became Jimmy “W.” Woo students as Parker moved toward the commercial and away from Chinese Concepts.

Jimmy “H.” Woo continued as well with San Soo ultimately opening the “Chinese Martial Arts Association” on Hollywood Blvd in an effort to capitalize on the commercial viability of “Chinese Self-Defense” for the public in Ho0llywood like Parker. Although they all were competitors in a sense, James “W.” Woo ultimately stated, “.. a lot of so-called masters have tried to streamline their teaching for commercial reasons, and in so doing have deleted everything that made them what they are.” The problem with all the arts has always been, when you study a focused or abbreviated art, people within that art begin to think that really is the art instead of what it is, a commercial striped down shell of an art.

Ed Parker passed in Dec of 1990 and Jimmy H. Woo 2 months later almost to the day in February 1991. All three had schools within 10 miles of each other and I had occasions to visit all three while also studying with Ark Wong in L.A. Chinatown who Ed Parker had studied with previously as well. Dan Inosanto studied there as well. So you see there is a real "Chinese Connection" among Kenpo and it's black belts and teachers.

James W. (Wing) Woo and James (Jimmy) H. (only) Woo were often confused with each other., but they were not related.

 

[Big Pat]

Thank you Dr. Chapel, the post was very informative. Mr. Parker's history with James H. and James W. has always been very interesting. From the articles I have read, San Soo has had it's share of problems after Mr. Woo died.

EKP RIP

Big Pat:asian:

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Big Pat
Thank you Dr. Chapel, the post was very informative. Mr. Parker's history with James H. and James W. has always been very interesting. From the articles I have read, San Soo has had it's share of problems after Mr. Woo died.

EKP RIP

Big Pat:asian:

Well yes, and it just like Kenpo in that regard. There have always been problems, defections, descrepancies, with all the arts once they went "public." Money, noteriety, ego, etc . have always claimed their share of victims and always will..

As far as Kenpo, I think there was probably more crap when Parker was alive and the defections were significant for a variety of variety of reasons but they all come back when they smell a "buck."

 

[Brother John]

I appreciate the insight into the similar histories.
What about their similarities (if there are any) in action or curriculum? If their histories are so close, what about the training and applications?
Thanks again...
Your Brother
John

 

[Doc]

Originally posted by Brother John
I appreciate the insight into the similar histories.
What about their similarities (if there are any) in action or curriculum? If their histories are so close, what about the training and applications?
Thanks again...
Your Brother
John

The commercial San Soo as an art is more complicated and explores more intricate and complex technique methodologies from the Chinese than commercial Kenpo. Intricate locks, controls, takedowns, escapes, evasions, nerves, etc are fairly common in its techniques. Commercial kenpo is 90% conceptual with Parker choosing to explore ideas with instructors and leaving it up to them ultimately to interpret those conceptual lessons to a workable model. In Parker's defense there is no other way when you only have one real expert of the art, if you choose to expand and go "public." But as always in these type situations, the instructor will always be the barometer by which you judge the curriculum. Interestingle enough, depending on instructor, San Soo training can take on the appearance of "live action" interactive Tai Chi applications paracticed at moderate speed with a lack of explosiveness. but no less effective in its ideas.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

The historical relationship between commercial kenpo and San Soo is rather well documented and has a primary influence traceable to Ed Parker. Ed Parker met James W. Woo in Northern California, convinced him to move south, and shared a relationship, with Woo teaching Tai Chi, etc in Parkers school. He also was providing significant input for Parkers Secrets of Chinese Karate. The two shared much information with each other, but it is important to recognize James W. Woo was well versed in Yang Tai Chi, Hung Gar, Choi Lai Fut, Southern Mantis, Northern Shaolin, etc.

Parker also had a relationship with James H. Woo (originally Chin Siu Dek) who followed Parkers lead and similar structure for a commercial self-defense art. Jimmy H. adjusted his family art (Tsoi Li Ho Fut Hung) to San Soo and focused on personal self-defense like commercial Kenpo for profit and expansion. In December of 1962 Jimmy officially held the grand opening for his martial arts studio in the Midway Shopping Center in El Monte, CA. In the early years he called it Karate-Kung Fu because like "kenpo," no one knew what kung fu was. San Soo is technique based and utilizes a similar Japanese ranking and belt system. An unusual anomaly, just like Kenpo is as well, for a Chinese Art, but tends to be more in-depth than conceptual commercial kenpo.

Like Parker, and Jame H., James W. Woo was forced to call his art when he opened his school in 1961 Karate/Kung-Fu the same way Parker tacked on Karate to Kenpo for commercial consumption.

Rick Flores and Rich Montgomery, 1st generation black belts under Parker became Jimmy W. Woo students as Parker moved toward the commercial and away from Chinese Concepts.

Jimmy H. Woo continued as well with San Soo ultimately opening the Chinese Martial Arts Association on Hollywood Blvd in an effort to capitalize on the commercial viability of Chinese Self-Defense for the public in Ho0llywood like Parker. Although they all were competitors in a sense, James W. Woo ultimately stated, .. a lot of so-called masters have tried to streamline their teaching for commercial reasons, and in so doing have deleted everything that made them what they are. The problem with all the arts has always been, when you study a focused or abbreviated art, people within that art begin to think that really is the art instead of what it is, a commercial striped down shell of an art.

Ed Parker passed in Dec of 1990 and Jimmy H. Woo 2 months later almost to the day in February 1991. All three had schools within 10 miles of each other and I had occasions to visit all three while also studying with Ark Wong in L.A. Chinatown who Ed Parker had studied with previously as well. Dan Inosanto studied there as well. So you see there is a real "Chinese Connection" among Kenpo and it's black belts and teachers.

James W. (Wing) Woo and James (Jimmy) H. (only) Woo were often confused with each other., but they were not related.

Most of what you write is correct. The Chinese martial arts association on Hollywood blvd was James Wing Woo’s. I have photos of it with Sifu James Wing Woo and rich Montgomery inside and outside. No disrespect intended.