EPAK and JKD

[Doc]

PLEASE tell us this "The Menu of Death" story.
Please.

:asian:

Your Brother
John

This is a true story by the way. Back in the sixties Ed Parker Sr. was in the Pasadena school when a couple of "street kids" came in. They were around 18/19 years old, big, street wise, black guys who essentially came in to "challenge" the Old Man. Although they were polite, it was clear they were sizing Parker up. After a bit of conversation, they looked at each other and clearly had made a silent decision between them as if it had been discussed beforehand.

One of them said, "You know we think we can take you."

Parker said, "Who is we?"

They said, "You know, us. We think we can take you."

Parker said, "OK, one at a time or both at the same time?" as he moved himself strategically in the office.

The two guys looked at each other and said, "It doesn't matter. Either way."

Parker said, "Well OK, but I need to ask you a couple of questions first."

They said, "What?"

Parker smiled and said, "How do you want to die?"

One of them looked at Parker curiously and said, "What do you mean?"

Parker reinterated, "How do you want to die? Today, tomorrow, or next week?"

The two guys looked at each other, and one asked, "You mean we got a choice?"

Parker said smiling, "You always have a choice son."

After a brief moment of thought and consultation with each other, they replied, "We changed our mind." and they left quickly without turning their back until they were outside.

Parker had told me he had told that story many times over the years, and I heard it so many times I could recite it myself like many of his anecdotes. But he often lamented that no one ever asked him the implication of what he meant. They just laughed. all of them. No I never asked him what he meant, because I knew.

To Brother John I don't know how long that question had been looming on this thread, but I just ran across it. If it's been awhile I apologize. I don't always get notified because I work off so any different computers.

 

[Gin-Gin]

This is a true story by the way.

Thank you for sharing it with us, Sir. I appreciate the way you and the other Black Belts tell Mr. Parker's stories/anecdotes. I never got to meet the man, but all of you (his Black Belts), his books, my instructor Mr. Billings, and the Art itself are the closest I'm going to get to him. By hearing from those who knew him, his memory is still alive (IMHO). I'm glad you're here on MT. I'm still learning new things, even when I'm not in class. How cool is that? :ultracool

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:

 

[BallistikMike]

My experience.

I have fours years of hands on training in White Tiger Kenpo under Tom Saviano a senior student of John McSweeney. I have an additional 6 years of off and on training with Ray Long a senior student of Tom Saviano as well as some grappling exposer with Tony Cecchine.

I recently purchased the IKCA video series with Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux to see what they have to offer. I decided to go through the program to recieve the full video instruction before making any judgements. So until that time I complete it I can not make any judgements about.

I would like to ask though why is it so bad to some people that people like Chuck Sullivan or John McSweeney both promoted to 7th by Mr. Parker do their own thing with the Kenpo they were taught.

Isnt that what Mr. Chap'el are doing or Mr. Wedlake or any of the high ranking BB's who studied under Ed Parker. People are making distinctions about who is teaching as close to the original EPAK or the "secret" EPAK.

If I gain one thing, just one thing from each of the senior instructors aren't I a better Kenpoist because of it.

The only true test I have ever seen is how your peers in Kenpo judge you.

For what its worth I am right where I am supposed to be at in my journey of Kenpo, just like everyone of you is right where you are supposed to be at.

Be safe all.

 

[Doc]

My experience.

I have fours years of hands on training in White Tiger Kenpo under Tom Saviano a senior student of John McSweeney. I have an additional 6 years of off and on training with Ray Long a senior student of Tom Saviano as well as some grappling exposer with Tony Cecchine.

I recently purchased the IKCA video series with Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux to see what they have to offer. I decided to go through the program to recieve the full video instruction before making any judgements. So until that time I complete it I can not make any judgements about.

I would like to ask though why is it so bad to some people that people like Chuck Sullivan or John McSweeney both promoted to 7th by Mr. Parker do their own thing with the Kenpo they were taught.

Isnt that what Mr. Chap'el are doing or Mr. Wedlake or any of the high ranking BB's who studied under Ed Parker. People are making distinctions about who is teaching as close to the original EPAK or the "secret" EPAK.

If I gain one thing, just one thing from each of the senior instructors aren't I a better Kenpoist because of it.

The only true test I have ever seen is how your peers in Kenpo judge you.

For what its worth I am right where I am supposed to be at in my journey of Kenpo, just like everyone of you is right where you are supposed to be at.

Be safe all.

It is good to recognize where you are and set a path to achieve your goals, whatever they may be. The efficacy of any program can only be judged by its participants and what they are willing to accept. That is, as long as it's acceptable to you, (an your particular peer group), it doesn't matter.

However, when you remove what you're willing to accept from its own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, you may find that in comparison, it falls short. Than you must have the conviction to accept the facts and re-educate yourself, or accept and embrace a lesser ideal. The idea that all of these versions, videos, teachers, students, etc are all equal is not reality.

As for myself, a gentle correction; I am not "doing my own thing," but simply taking the path taught to me and outlined by my teacher, which for many is exactly what they are doing as well. Not everyone, but many of them. By the way I'm not offended by your statement, just a kind correction.

"Students are like water and will always seek their own level, but that is also why just because the red show, it don't mean that you know." - Ed Parker Sr."

In Parker's later years he recognized certain aspects of some of his Kenpo interpretations were, in his words, "... way out of control, and an entity feeding upon itself." and rank virtually, in many many cases meant nothing at all, no matter who it was or how long they had "known" Ed Parker.

"Knowing" someone doesn't mean you are contiually a true student. In fact the majority of Parker's senior ranks over his lifetime either left him to "do their own thing," were "fired," or were literally "kicked out" and that was almost everyone. However with only a very few exceptions, he always remained cordial with everybody. He called it "business." Anyone that knew Parker also knew he was one hell of a businessman. He actually maintained the integrity of his personal art, and created a multi-million dollar business at the same time. Pure genious. As I see it, with the notable exception of Parker himself, that is impossible to do. Most have to choose one or the other, and anything else is a compromise.

 

[Thunderbolt]

hey Doc,

great post. I hope you had a wonderful new year. I have 1 following up question about Mr. Parker and i hope you don't mind to answer it if it is NOT answered.

Why AK system doesn't have a successor like other kenpo systems (GM Ralph Castro of Shaolin Kempo named his son as a next leader).?

I can't figure out why we don't have a successor for a good art like AK.???

Mr Parker Jr was not interested in inheritaging his father's art OR Mr Parker Sr passed away early before naming 1 successor.?

do you still think that we still have a chaos in AK even though we have a successor.???

thank you for answering my question.

 

[BallistikMike]

It is good to recognize where you are and set a path to achieve your goals, whatever they may be. The efficacy of any program can only be judged by its participants and what they are willing to accept. That is, as long as it's acceptable to you, (an your particular peer group), it doesn't matter.

However, when you remove what you're willing to accept from its own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, you may find that in comparison, it falls short. Than you must have the conviction to accept the facts and re-educate yourself, or accept and embrace a lesser ideal. The idea that all of these versions, videos, teachers, students, etc are all equal is not reality.

I agree 100%. Your peers and your reality are very different from my own.

When you say "remove what I am willing to accept from it own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, I may find that in comparison, it falls short." I may also find that it exceeds those comparisons also correct?

As for myself, a gentle correction; I am not "doing my own thing," but simply taking the path taught to me and outlined by my teacher, which for many is exactly what they are doing as well. Not everyone, but many of them. By the way I'm not offended by your statement, just a kind correction.

That is down right awesome imho. To have an individual training guideline laid out by Mr. Parker himself. I am envious Not being sarcastic I really am.

"Students are like water and will always seek their own level, but that is also why just because the red show, it don't mean that you know." - Ed Parker Sr."

In Parker's later years he recognized certain aspects of some of his Kenpo interpretations were, in his words, "... way out of control, and an entity feeding upon itself." and rank virtually, in many many cases meant nothing at all, no matter who it was or how long they had "known" Ed Parker.

"Knowing" someone doesn't mean you are contiually a true student. In fact the majority of Parker's senior ranks over his lifetime either left him to "do their own thing," were "fired," or were literally "kicked out" and that was almost everyone. However with only a very few exceptions, he always remained cordial with everybody. He called it "business." Anyone that knew Parker also knew he was one hell of a businessman. He actually maintained the integrity of his personal art, and created a multi-million dollar business at the same time. Pure genious. As I see it, with the notable exception of Parker himself, that is impossible to do. Most have to choose one or the other, and anything else is a compromise.

See now this is what really irks me. I would like to know these things. I would like to have the information available so I can make an informed decision! I wouldn't care who's toes were stepped on, even my lineage. I would like to know both sides of the story so I can make as an informed decision as possible.

How do I find this information out?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Careful what you ask...you might not like the answer, and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it.

D.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Careful what you ask...you might not like the answer, and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it.

D.

Now that has to be the quote of the century, good call.

DarK LorD

 

[BallistikMike]

Careful what you ask...you might not like the answer, and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it.

D.

Liking the answer and finding out the truth are two very different things. I know the difference.

"...and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it."

This is true, its also why I joined this forum and have asked questions and made statements. I seek knowledge, at least what I am capable of understanding with my current level.

I dont mind the bumps and bruises here, or on the floor. I dont mind the growing pains I may suffer. I am no internet warrior, by far! I will more then likely stumble through posta with questions and statments. I just want to read and learn.

When I get caught up in the emotion of posting here, I take a step back, withdraw and rethink what caused it. See its on me why that happens not the people answering my question or my statement.

Be safe.

 

[Brother John]

actually there is a standard lesson plan for jun fan, which is the base art of jkd.

There is no 'base art' to Jeet Kune Do, it's not an art and it is bound by no art. It is a philosophical approach to martial arts and their 'expression' through the individual. I believe that as soon as you begin to put boundaries on it, ascribing it to these people or those....this are or that... that you've left the originators concept of Jeet Kune Do., but even that...in the end, is good. It's YOUR path.
:idunno:
Your Brother
John

 

[Doc]

I agree 100%. Your peers and your reality are very different from my own.

When you say "remove what I am willing to accept from it own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, I may find that in comparison, it falls short." I may also find that it exceeds those comparisons also correct?

Theoretically anything is possible - but realistically, not likely.

That is down right awesome imho. To have an individual training guideline laid out by Mr. Parker himself. I am envious Not being sarcastic I really am.

While that is true, Mr. Parker did that for alot of people, but his "lesson plans" had varying levels of knowledge. The majority of it was wholly conceptual with no "real" knowledge beyond the physical principles the individual brought to the table himself. Everyone defato chose their own level whether it was the earlier systems or the commercial motion business. Although it is true you can explore "motion" infinitely, that is not real knowledge. If I teach you addition, substraction, and multiplication you will not "discover" calculus.

See now this is what really irks me. I would like to know these things. I would like to have the information available so I can make an informed decision! I wouldn't care who's toes were stepped on, even my lineage. I would like to know both sides of the story so I can make as an informed decision as possible.
How do I find this information out?

Unfortunately people treat the art as a "time investment." Once they have invested time, and acquired rank they are vested and do not want to accept that maybe their time was not as productive as they thought it was.

Starting over is difficult for anyone who's focus is on the "time" and "rank" over the knowledge. Both are immaterial to knowledge without the appropriate teacher. But that too is difficult. What looks great today, someone may come along and show you it is not what you thought it was a year later. Therefore your expectations have to constantly adjust to the available circumstances, none of which may be what you are truly looking for. Nothing is more difficult than looking for something, but you don't know what "it" is. You only know you haven't found it.

"Starting over" when you feel that you have already accomplished something is hard for most people. Most just keep doing what they are doing, accepting the level they are involved in, and keeping the rank and not losing the time investment.

Find a teacher you believe has it, and be prepared to be wrong and try again. Sometimes it's like falling in love with a beautiful woman, only to find out she really is a man. You move on, be more careful, ask better questions next time, and look for physical proof.

To echo a previous comment -

Hint: you won't find real knowledge on video or at a distance. People traveled all the time to seek Mr. Parker out, why? Because they had no choice if they wanted his counsel. Harvard is in one place and doesn't do distance learning. If you want Harvard, you go to Harvard or you "settle" for Mill Valley Community College.

But be careful because everyone doesn't belong at Harvard. The majority belong at a Community College somewhere. See we are back to Mr. Parker's anaology about water and students - they both seek their "own level."

 

[Doc]

There is no 'base art' to Jeet Kune Do, it's not an art and it is bound by no art. It is a philosophical approach to martial arts and their 'expression' through the individual. I believe that as soon as you begin to put boundaries on it, ascribing it to these people or those....this are or that... that you've left the originators concept of Jeet Kune Do., but even that...in the end, is good. It's YOUR path.
:idunno:
Your Brother
John

Very well said sir. When Bruce died there was a mad scramble (sounds familiar) to commercialize JKD which has no structure. That is why there is usually someone's name attached to all the variations of JKD Concepts. The funny thing is it's number one student concentrates on Silat and Kali. Does that tell you something?

 

[GAB]

Liking the answer and finding out the truth are two very different things. I know the difference.

"...and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it."

This is true, its also why I joined this forum and have asked questions and made statements. I seek knowledge, at least what I am capable of understanding with my current level.

I dont mind the bumps and bruises here, or on the floor. I dont mind the growing pains I may suffer. I am no internet warrior, by far! I will more then likely stumble through posta with questions and statments. I just want to read and learn.

When I get caught up in the emotion of posting here, I take a step back, withdraw and rethink what caused it. See its on me why that happens not the people answering my question or my statement.

Be safe.

Hi,

The above quote is really a good post. I commend you, and may I add.

Please don't change.

Regards, Gary

 

[John Bishop]

In Parker's later years he recognized certain aspects of some of his Kenpo interpretations were, in his words, "... way out of control, and an entity feeding upon itself." and rank virtually, in many many cases meant nothing at all, no matter who it was or how long they had "known" Ed Parker.

"Knowing" someone doesn't mean you are contiually a true student. In fact the majority of Parker's senior ranks over his lifetime either left him to "do their own thing," were "fired," or were literally "kicked out" and that was almost everyone. However with only a very few exceptions, he always remained cordial with everybody.

Boy ain't that the truth. Surprising how many of these people now claim to have been "like sons", or "longtime personal students". They never made those claims when Mr. Parker was alive.

 

[Doc]

Boy ain't that the truth. Surprising how many of these people now claim to have been "like sons", or "longtime personal students". They never made those claims when Mr. Parker was alive.

Yes, as you know John the names would "shock" most. It is also interesting how so many so-called students jumped lineage. Most of them were actually students of students. Mr. Parker always co-promoted with most on the recommendation of their instructors, who where in many instances just "casual" students themselves. The business structure he created was absolute pure genius.

I've always been envious of Kajukenbo's much more rigid control of its lineage and structure. The business definitely "blurred" the lines between Mr. Parker's various interpretations and eras. It truly was "out of control." But in his defense he always said, "It is what it is. No more no less. People will always make of it what they want, and I can't control that."

Only in the arts is rank forever, no matter when or what you got it for, or what you may have done since.

 

[Jonah]

Originally Posted by DOC:

“…..Only in the arts is rank forever, no matter when or what you got it for, or what you may have done since.”



I see rank as a kin to professional qualification and therefore once attained I think that is for life.



However I think a good idea would be to mirror the professions. As in my profession, to stay registered and be able to practice, we must be subject to CPD – Continued Professional Development where we must prove to our Registration Board that we have attended relevant seminars, kept in touch with legal and regulatory changes / updates and be able to prove a relevant level of competency. What do you think


A bit off thread but DOC’s finishing statement sparked off my thoughts
Jonah

 

[Doc]

Originally Posted by DOC:

“…..Only in the arts is rank forever, no matter when or what you got it for, or what you may have done since.”



I see rank as a kin to professional qualification and therefore once attained I think that is for life.



However I think a good idea would be to mirror the professions. As in my profession, to stay registered and be able to practice, we must be subject to CPD – Continued Professional Development where we must prove to our Registration Board that we have attended relevant seminars, kept in touch with legal and regulatory changes / updates and be able to prove a relevant level of competency. What do you think


A bit off thread but DOC’s finishing statement sparked off my thoughts
Jonah

Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.

 

[Doc]

Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.

Oh yeah,
A certain segment of academia created "grading on the curve" to justify mediocrity. After they suceeded in dumbing everyone down with that brainstorm, they switched to "social promotions." Translation; "He's been around awhile so let's move him up." Sound familiar? Not in my house.

 

[Jonah]

I suppose its how the student him/her self looks at it. Do we look at progression as a way of proving something to others or, like I do, to yourself.

May be I want to live in an ideal world were people at the top of the chain are the best around to fill that role.

Jonah

 

[Doc]

Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.

Oh yeah,
A certain segment of academia created "grading on the curve" to justify mediocrity. After they suceeded in dumbing everyone down with that brainstorm, they switched to "social promotions." Translation; "He's been around awhile so let's move him up." Sound familiar? Not in my house.