Fascinating thread and great posts by everyone. There are so many to choose from where to start : Thor, Odan, Zeus, Athena, Apollo, Hercules, Shiva, etc. I do not think that I could pick just one.
mythological figures
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Ah! Janus it is.:ultracoolFascinating thread and great posts by everyone. There are so many to choose from where to start : Thor, Odan, Zeus, Athena, Apollo, Hercules, Shiva, etc. I do not think that I could pick just one.
Sean
Not wanting to get off-topic for the thread, ToD, but the Viking/Norse culture is actually quite different from the common conceptions of same.
Going 'Viking' was not a bunch of toughs going out to crack skulls (tho' on the surface the differences to the observer may seem obscure
), it was a socially acceptible way for those of birth to prove themselves, prove their piety and garner some wealth at the same time.
As the trading side of things became the primary source of wealth (it is estmated that the island of Gotland was probably the richest place on Earth in it's heyday), the warrior cults turned on their own or hired out to foreign kings as mercenaries, some even showing up in the Middle East.
It's a fascinating story that has seemingly been drowned by the Roman 'backlight' and I'd actvely encourage investigation of it. It puts a new spin on the Norse divinities that is worth seeing {mind you, some of your comments indicate a broader aquaintence with the subject than usual anyway :tup:}.
P.S. Many congrats to Exile on his survival to the entry of his seventh decade ... now we know where some of that wisdom comes from.
Going 'Viking' was not a bunch of toughs going out to crack skulls (tho' on the surface the differences to the observer may seem obscure
), it was a socially acceptible way for those of birth to prove themselves, prove their piety and garner some wealth at the same time.As the trading side of things became the primary source of wealth (it is estmated that the island of Gotland was probably the richest place on Earth in it's heyday), the warrior cults turned on their own or hired out to foreign kings as mercenaries, some even showing up in the Middle East.
It's a fascinating story that has seemingly been drowned by the Roman 'backlight' and I'd actvely encourage investigation of it. It puts a new spin on the Norse divinities that is worth seeing {mind you, some of your comments indicate a broader aquaintence with the subject than usual anyway :tup:}.
P.S. Many congrats to Exile on his survival to the entry of his seventh decade ... now we know where some of that wisdom comes from
.
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
In particular I suggest the Varangian Guard as a subject of research. They were Norwegian warriors who served the Emperors in Byzantium. They had a very fierce reputation and eventually were influencing, and choosing, who would be Emperor (in one incident they blinded a candidate they did not like, but because they were not allowed to touch the royal personage they did it by bringing a red hot iron very close to his eyes). The most famous Varangian was Harold Hadrada who later became King of Norway and invaded England.
In my younger days, I surely would've chosen Bacchus to compliment my carefree, excessive lifestyle.
Now, however, I would have to go with a calmer, more contained figure out of the mists of time...such as Euterpe, the muse of lyric poetry or Jubal Harshaw, a curmudgeon.
Now, however, I would have to go with a calmer, more contained figure out of the mists of time...such as Euterpe, the muse of lyric poetry or Jubal Harshaw, a curmudgeon.
Not wanting to get off-topic for the thread, ToD, but the Viking/Norse culture is actually quite different from the common conceptions of same.
Going 'Viking' was not a bunch of toughs going out to crack skulls (tho' on the surface the differences to the observer may seem obscure
As the trading side of things became the primary source of wealth (it is estmated that the island of Gotland was probably the richest place on Earth in it's heyday), the warrior cults turned on their own or hired out to foreign kings as mercenaries, some even showing up in the Middle East.
It's a fascinating story that has seemingly been drowned by the Roman 'backlight' and I'd actvely encourage investigation of it. It puts a new spin on the Norse divinities that is worth seeing {mind you, some of your comments indicate a broader aquaintence with the subject than usual anyway :tup:}.
Very cool view of the matter, S! Things are always a bit more complex and multilayered than they appear at first... well, almost always...
P.S. Many congrats to Exile on his survival to the entry of his seventh decade ... now we know where some of that wisdom comes from
Ogod, my seventh decade... it's scary when you put it like that!
A couple of post ago on this thread I made a deal with XS that no one would be regarded as `old' who wasn't at least as old as Odin. You're putting me in the position of having to demonstrate real commitment to that view of things...
But thanks for the good wishes and kind words (although I have to say, I'd don't feel nearly wise enough to justify entering my seventh decade, lol).
Steel Tiger said:
Ah, that is interesting. It makes you wonder about just what it was about these pre-IE survivals that made them appealing to the conquering populations. Normally, in situations of conquest, it's winner-take-all, and the conquerers wouldnt want, you'd imagine, to offend their own gods who'd given them victory. But something about certain of the indigenous deities must do some important work for them... any ideas?
__________________
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
This subject has been examined in depth with regard to the pre-IE religion of Europe. Before the migration the focus of worship had been Earth goddesses, not the lovey-dovey things thought of today, but harsh, cold, scary beings, and their son/husband/protector. These were beings you didn't want the attention of and sacrifices were made to get them to leave people alone.
In the Greaco-Roman pantheon some of these goddesses can still be seen. Demeter, Persephone, Cybele, and Hecate (though Hecate may actually be from the Middle East) all demonstrate the harsh, but necessary, nature of the Earth.
Incidentally, it was the cult of Cybele that became the basis of the Catholic Church's cult of the Holy Virgin. The similarities between the cults is astounding. Just another example of a hangover from another age I guess.
Very cool view of the matter, S! Things are always a bit more complex and multilayered than they appear at first... well, almost always...
Ogod, my seventh decade... it's scary when you put it like that!
A couple of post ago on this thread I made a deal with XS that no one would be regarded as `old' who wasn't at least as old as Odin. You're putting me in the position of having to demonstrate real commitment to that view of things...
But thanks for the good wishes and kind words (although I have to say, I'd don't feel nearly wise enough to justify entering my seventh decade, lol).
Ah, that is interesting. It makes you wonder about just what it was about these pre-IE survivals that made them appealing to the conquering populations. Normally, in situations of conquest, it's winner-take-all, and the conquerers wouldnt want, you'd imagine, to offend their own gods who'd given them victory. But something about certain of the indigenous deities must do some important work for them... any ideas?
__________________
Exile we are all better off on MartialTalk due to your wisdom and the years that contributed to it.
This is very much in line with various descriptions I've read of cults around what Robert Graves made famous under the rubric `the White Goddess'. RG may have been a bit of a nutter, but at least in his vision, the goddesses who were the focus of the pre-IE religious world, as you point out, weren't romanticized nurturers; their cults embodied the recognition that new life requires the death of old life. It was actually, on his view of things, a pretty bleak vision of things... I gather you're referring to that particular aspect of the very ancient goddess-worship that seems to have been prevalent in the ancient Mediterranean and elsewhere. Makes the late Roman Mithraic cult , the austere religion of the Roman soldiers, look positively warm-hearted by comparison...
Yes, that business about Hecate doesn't surprise me in the least... she seems to represent a really ancient sublayer of religious practice. Very scary, actually... and again, you wonder what it was that led the ancient Greeks to welcome her into their catalogue of divinities, rather than suppressing her worship. Maybe she was sufficiently formidable to scare them, enough to want to kind of placate her by legitimizing her worship? I could imagine that...
That's a very plausible connection. There's plenty of evidence that the Cybelline and similar cults enjoyed an unbroken popularity over many centuries in the eastern Mediterranean, and early Christianity was very adept at incorporating popular pagan deities and semideities into its own pantheon of sacred personae. Very pragmaticthe locals are fanatically devoted to Clothloch the weasel demon; you can either fight them bitterly to force them to worship St. George, or you can simply enroll St. Clothius in the official hagiography, and voilà, everyone is happythey keep Clothloch and you have a new congregation. Simple!
Exile we are all better off on MartialTalk due to your wisdom and the years that contributed to it.
Brian... I don't know what to say... I appreciate your kind words, but I definitely get the feeling that I get far more wisdom from MT than I contribute to it. That's what makes it so addictive... simply log on and the equivalent of person-centuries of MA experience and all-around sharp thinking is there on tap... four cheers for the Internet, eh?! :asian:
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
Yes its that pig sacrificing, fascinated with blood, don't leave the house at night aspect.
It is possible that this particular goddes embodied or guarded something that was as important to the new culture as it was to the old and had a collection of mysteries and traditions that could not be replaced.
Oh yes, very pragmatic. Did you know that the Church even had Buddha listed as one of its saints for a while?
Hip hip hoorah!!!
Yes. That has the ring of truth. Hard to see why else one would do such a thing, with all one's own minor deities demanding a share of the spoils...
Buddha? St. Gautema? Boy, that takes nerve.
One of my favorite books is a slim volume translated from German called Bach and the Heavenly Choir, about a musical Pope, a violinist, who desperately tries, against opposition from the Lutheran Church and his own cardinals, to have Johann Sebastian Bach beatified as a saint of the Roman Catholic Church. But St. Gautema takes the cake for sheer brass!
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
True, but that whole trapped under a mountain thing may not be to much fun, but heck the rest would make it all worth it.
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
And being fed iron balls and liquid copper! No thanks!!
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
aah but look at the fun he had and ALL the deities he annoyed
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
His ability to annoy was beautifully portrayed in the Japanese television series from the late seventies or early eighties. You may not have seen it as it was only released in two countries outside Japan - Britain and Australia, but it can be found on DVD.
Oh, I remebered the actual title given to him by Buddha, "Buddha of Victorious in Strife". That's a pretty cool title.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Turn on the TV in Beijing and you WILL find a movie about the Monkey King and there is even a series about Sun Wukong. I even have a couple DVDs I picked up there.
Guys, are you talking about someone from the Journey to the West epic?
Steel Tiger
Senior Master
You betcha! Sun Wukong, the Iron Monkey, the Monkey King, or just plain Monkey. Have staff will thump!!
That's right... it's coming back. He got this staff from some malign undersea demon/spirit (I think of the guy as a big crocodile, for some reason) and it can become, like, supermassive and belt the stuffing out of various enemies as need be?
I also dimly recall something about peaches of immortality... or am I making that up? Part of a bribe attempt on the part of the Jade Emperor? Am I warm... even a little?
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
What the HECK are you talking about :uhyeah:
Just kidding, yup you got it that be the guy.... err... or the monkey
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