My opinion on self defense. I want your opinions!

[FlamingJulian]

So self defense in my Taekwondo school id where someone does and unrealistic grab on you and you go though a series of movements then execute a counter attack. My issue with this: if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick. Do any of you agree or disagree? I feel like these moves won't help me in the street? Any suggestions? Is this all completely useless? Thanks guys

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm having a hard dime visualizing what you are describing. The rule that I follow is that self-defense should be practical and simple based on skill level of the person who has to use the technique. Was this technique specifically stated as a self-defense technique?

 

[FlamingJulian]

I'm having a hard dime visualizing what you are describing. The rule that I follow is that self-defense should be practical and simple based on skill level of the person who has to use the technique. Was this technique specifically stated as a self-defense technique?

Yes it was. It kind of scars me cause I'm the street that's not practical enough. The people in the class are pretty good at sparing so I know it's not a Mc Dojo because I know how Mc Dojo's work lol.


-Julian

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So self defense in my Taekwondo school id where someone does and unrealistic grab on you and you go though a series of movements then execute a counter attack. My issue with this: if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick. Do any of you agree or disagree? I feel like these moves won't help me in the street? Any suggestions? Is this all completely useless? Thanks guys

Based on how you're describing it, I wouldn't consider it a complicated technique - it's basically just pulling them so they focus on your hand and kicking them, no? The only issue I would have is aiming the kick at the face, but then again I am not a TKD guy.

 

[Red Sun]

If someone shakes your hand, headbutt them and start throwing punches. *shrugs*

 

[FlamingJulian]

If someone shakes your hand, headbutt them and start throwing punches. *shrugs*

Exactly what I'm saying


-Julian

 

[FlamingJulian]

Based on how you're describing it, I wouldn't consider it a complicated technique - it's basically just pulling them so they focus on your hand and kicking them, no? The only issue I would have is aiming the kick at the face, but then again I am not a TKD guy.

The face kick is easy for a Tkd fighter. But if more then just pulling them. It's hard to explain but it involves a side step and a techniques call "sticky fingers".


-Julian

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So self defense in my Taekwondo school id where someone does and unrealistic grab on you and you go though a series of movements then execute a counter attack. My issue with this: if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick. Do any of you agree or disagree? I feel like these moves won't help me in the street? Any suggestions? Is this all completely useless? Thanks guys

The specific moves you learn when working on self-defense are only selections of what's possible. One option is to step to the side, pull the arm down, and kick in the face. There are many others. Which you choose should depend upon the situation, rather than your personal preferences. I've taken some of the really complex techniques in NGA and shown students (and some instructors) where they actually fit during reasonable movement. Often, they show up when another technique fails, or when we fumble past something else, or when we just keep moving, waiting for an opening to happen. We practice a variety of techniques and applications so we learn to recognize the right openings, rather than forcing a technique where it doesn't belong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes it was. It kind of scars me cause I'm the street that's not practical enough. The people in the class are pretty good at sparing so I know it's not a Mc Dojo because I know how Mc Dojo's work lol.


-Julian

It doesn't sound over-complex. It sounds like it gets you off-line from an attack, off-balances the attacker, and renders a strike. There are more steps than just hitting or kicking, but the other movements have purpose. If you don't understand the purpose, it seems cumbersome. If you know the purpose, it fits a certain set of circumstances quite nicely.

 

[FlamingJulian]

It doesn't sound over-complex. It sounds like it gets you off-line from an attack, off-balances the attacker, and renders a strike. There are more steps than just hitting or kicking, but the other movements have purpose. If you don't understand the purpose, it seems cumbersome. If you know the purpose, it fits a certain set of circumstances quite nicely.

Well like Bruce Lee said: "You do thousands and thousands of steps before you do one single thing" --< or something like that he said lol


-Julian

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well like Bruce Lee said: "You do thousands and thousands of steps before you do one single thing" --< or something like that he said lol


-Julian

And Ueshiba Morihei (the founder of Aikido) once explained his art as "10,000 techniques and one technique". By that, I think he meant that people spent a lot of time learning different techniques so they could eventually understand the one underlying principle that tied them all together. I think there's a bit of that in every art.

 

[FlamingJulian]

And Ueshiba Morihei (the founder of Aikido) once explained his art as "10,000 techniques and one technique". By that, I think he meant that people spent a lot of time learning different techniques so they could eventually understand the one underlying principle that tied them all together. I think there's a bit of that in every art.

Dang good point


-Julian

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes it was. It kind of scars me cause I'm the street that's not practical enough. The people in the class are pretty good at sparing so I know it's not a Mc Dojo because I know how Mc Dojo's work lol.


-Julian

I wonder if the context of the technique isn't understood. I still don't have an idea of what it looks like so I'm just thinking of reasons why a technique may not originally look practical but in reality it may be very practical for someone with the kicking ability of a TKD practitioner. Sometimes the actually real life application of a technique is more about the movement of the technique than the exact look of the technique. As my Sifu says, the goal isn't to use the form, but the shape of the technique. In your case the form of the technique is the hand shake grab, but the shape of the technique is grabbing someone's wrist to pull them off balance and then kicking them.

I'm not saying that it's correct or wrong because I don't do TKD. But it may require you to deeper explore the context of the technique.

 

[FlamingJulian]

I wonder if the context of the technique isn't understood. I still don't have an idea of what it looks like so I'm just thinking of reasons why a technique may not originally look practical but in reality it may be very practical for someone with the kicking ability of a TKD practitioner. Sometimes the actually real life application of a technique is more about the movement of the technique than the exact look of the technique. As my Sifu says, the goal isn't to use the form, but the shape of the technique. In your case the form of the technique is the hand shake grab, but the shape of the technique is grabbing someone's wrist to pull them off balance and then kicking them.

I'm not saying that it's correct or wrong because I don't do TKD. But it may require you to deeper explore the context of the technique.

True I agree.


-Julian

 

[drop bear]

I wonder if the context of the technique isn't understood. I still don't have an idea of what it looks like so I'm just thinking of reasons why a technique may not originally look practical but in reality it may be very practical for someone with the kicking ability of a TKD practitioner. Sometimes the actually real life application of a technique is more about the movement of the technique than the exact look of the technique. As my Sifu says, the goal isn't to use the form, but the shape of the technique. In your case the form of the technique is the hand shake grab, but the shape of the technique is grabbing someone's wrist to pull them off balance and then kicking them.

I'm not saying that it's correct or wrong because I don't do TKD. But it may require you to deeper explore the context of the technique.

I am envisioning a bit of re stomping the groin.

Otherwise it is not exactly wasted. But you generally should work one or two defences and then let your partner counter. So you don have a fifty strike combination against a guy just standing there.

 

[wingchun100]

So self defense in my Taekwondo school id where someone does and unrealistic grab on you and you go though a series of movements then execute a counter attack. My issue with this: if someone is going to handshake me and hold my hand there I'm going to side kick them, or kick them in the groin, or punch them in the face rather than taking two steps to the side, yanking their arm down, and kicking them in the face with a front kick. Do any of you agree or disagree? I feel like these moves won't help me in the street? Any suggestions? Is this all completely useless? Thanks guys

While I was looking around for the style I wanted to study, I visited a lot of martial arts schools...took a lot of free lessons. Sadly, MANY of them started me out with the "if someone grabs your wrist" shtick. The defensive moves you described are not useless, but the whole wrist-grabbing thing is unrealistic. I've witnessed a lot of street fights in my day. No one ever went for a wrist grab first. If I were you, I would check out some other schools. You want to find a style where, when you see it, you say, "Wow, I see how that could be applied!" You want something that speaks out to you, that strikes you as making sense the SECOND you see it.

At least, that is my opinion on it anyway...for what it's worth.

 

[FlamingJulian]

While I was looking around for the style I wanted to study, I visited a lot of martial arts schools...took a lot of free lessons. Sadly, MANY of them started me out with the "if someone grabs your wrist" shtick. The defensive moves you described are not useless, but the whole wrist-grabbing thing is unrealistic. I've witnessed a lot of street fights in my day. No one ever went for a wrist grab first. If I were you, I would check out some other schools. You want to find a style where, when you see it, you say, "Wow, I see how that could be applied!" You want something that speaks out to you, that strikes you as making sense the SECOND you see it.

At least, that is my opinion on it anyway...for what it's worth.

Thanks for replying. I would check out some other schools but will stick with my school. I'll just have to do both. I'm passionate about Taekwondo and do believe that it's a great art. I just think that there are useless things in it.


-Julian

 

[Flatfish]

I know exactly what you are talking about as I have had the same thoughts many times. In our curriculum up to 1st Dan we learn 60 self defense techniques/responses. Some of them I would consider worthwhile and with appropriate training should be able to be applied in a real encounter, while others are utter and complete hogwash.
The one that almost made me quit TKD was a counter to a front kick that involved punching the top of the foot. I guess it could come in handy if you are attacked on the beach by a barefooted villain, dunno.

I think these things just get passed down out of tradition with many instructors not questioning whether useful or not.

Anyway, I will resolve this for myself by taking time after my 1st Dan test to more realistically work on the techniques that I think might be useful and separating wheat and chaff so to speak.
My goal for where I would like to take my TKD is for it to be effective in case I ever need it. I like sparring but I am old and stiff and will never really be competitive so I will focus on the other stuff.

 

[FlamingJulian]

I know exactly what you are talking about as I have had the same thoughts many times. In our curriculum up to 1st Dan we learn 60 self defense techniques/responses. Some of them I would consider worthwhile and with appropriate training should be able to be applied in a real encounter, while others are utter and complete hogwash.
The one that almost made me quit TKD was a counter to a front kick that involved punching the top of the foot. I guess it could come in handy if you are attacked on the beach by a barefooted villain, dunno.

I think these things just get passed down out of tradition with many instructors not questioning whether useful or not.

Anyway, I will resolve this for myself by taking time after my 1st Dan test to more realistically work on the techniques that I think might be useful and separating wheat and chaff so to speak.
My goal for where I would like to take my TKD is for it to be effective in case I ever need it. I like sparring but I am old and stiff and will never really be competitive so I will focus on the other stuff.

Thanks for replying. I agree with all of your points too. I don't see myself quitting Taekwondo because there's a lot of things I like from it. I can't imagine would would top it Besides JKD but that's all opinion based.


-Julian

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In my opinion, it's rather a misnomer to call these techniques "self-defense", although I believe that is a more or less direct translation of "hosinsul", which is the general term for this portion of the TKD curriculum.

What I've seen from many TKD schools is that their hosinsul curriculum seems to be a collection of counters (possibly derived from hapkido) to various (mostly static, mostly unrealistic) grabs. Often the techniques use an entirely different set of body mechanics and tactics from what is taught in the forms and in sparring. From my standpoint as a grappler, the execution and understanding of these techniques is often... not very impressive. This would be a typical example of the sort of stuff I usually see:

This is a gross generalization, of course. I'm sure there are TKD schools where the hosinsul material is better thought out and more integrated with the rest of the curriculum. Perhaps some of the senior TKD practitioners here can offer some input on the subject.