My First ITF Class

[Gwai Lo Dan]

boxing style punches, movement and sparring(but with kicks ofcourse, so this kind of sparring is somewhat more akin to WAKO kickboxing), some escapes and counters on the ground, and a few of the more practical standing wrist and arm-locks from hapkido. I don't train in this chain, allthough I have considered it several times, and might train there in the future. Sounds like something that would fit OP perfectly.

Yes I would enjoy that. However, I think kicking is very hard to do well, so I also enjoy the "kicking, kicking, and more kicking" schools (using Manny's terminology). What I don't like is spending time on things that I can't see myself using directly, like complicated 1 step sparrings that are contingent on my partner staying in his punching stance while I do 5 moves.

Even though I started out in Kukki-style TKD in 1992, I considered joining an ITF club after a few years of Kukki, because of their sparring ruleset, and I even visited several in an attempt to see if it was something that would fit me, but I was scared away by how almost all the ITF representatives I met seemingly used any oportunity they got to bash what they called "WTF-style", saying that everything that I had previously learned was useless or "watered down"

I had the same experience. I posted before that I did TKD in university for 4 months in 1994. My house mate said he was in TKD too, but I never saw him there. Then when it came out that he was in the ITF class and I was in the WTF class, he said, "Oh, I am studying the REAL TKD.". So I asked what "real" means and he said, "for instance, you wouldn't be able to defend if I did this" and he ran into me.

My first (yellow belt) instinct was a side kick to the face, so I picked up my front leg and side kicked his nose as he rushed in, pulling my kick so that I just tapped him. After he rubbed his nose, he never again said my TKD sucked. Arguably he made his point that I didn't select the best technique, but it was good enough to stop him.

The only other time someone said "TKD sucks" was about 4 years prior in 1990 or 1991, also at university, and also as a yellow belt. My HK friend (a yellow belt but lifelong student of CMA) wko was teaching me kicking, introduced me to a guy in his residence, saying I was the guy from the TKD class that he was teaching, and I was pretty good. The guy said "TKD sucks. I could beat you up". I said "yeah, I'm not very good." And he repeated that he could beat me up and I said "yeah, I'm only a yellow belt". And then the guy started pushing me. After a little shoving the guy wouldn't stop so I did a turning kick to his head, pulling my kick a few inches from his head. After that, he stopped saying he could beat me up.

 

[ATC]

I don't think punching to the head and boxing style punches in general are a WTF vs. ITF thing. I think it is more of an instructor thing. I teach punching all the time from a boxing stand point and we do WTF sparring at our school. Punching is a big part of our test as we call it combat punching vs. TKD or martial art punching from the hip. Just my .02.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I don't think punching to the head and boxing style punches in general are a WTF vs. ITF thing. I think it is more of an instructor thing. I teach punching all the time from a boxing stand point and we do WTF sparring at our school. Punching is a big part of our test as we call it combat punching vs. TKD or martial art punching from the hip. Just my .02.

Given that WTF sparring promotes and is mostly about kicking, it's no wonder punching is secondary in KKW. I certainly wasn't bored training the art. You definately develop skills applicable either directly or indirectly in real life, regardless of the fact that many of the kicks are extravagant. ITFs problem is probably the complete opposite - spending too much time on the traditional aspects, although this might vary from school to school. You get good at what you do, and even sport geared schools has an edge in that regard. Just like boxers get good at boxing because they actually box alot.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I am rather negative towards that many TKD school teaches boxing and not only TKD strikes. That's really an admission of inferiority. Boxing has no place in TKD from a principled stand point. And the instruction in a TKD school is bound to be sub optimal compared to that of a real boxing school. I don't think it gives much.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I am rather negative towards that many TKD school teaches boxing and not only TKD strikes. That's really an admission of inferiority. Boxing has no place in TKD from a principled stand point. And the instruction in a TKD school is bound to be sub optimal compared to that of a real boxing school. I don't think it gives much.

I will have to review my IIC notes and the texts but I vividly recall a statement by General Choi to the effect that "There is a standard method for executing techniques, but that may be modified depending on the circumstances. " So, if you define "TKD Strikes" as how technical pattern parameters are stipulated, then you are over simplifying the art.

A bigger issue is that the goal of TKD "One technique for victory" is much different than the competition goal which is score the most / give up the least amount of points.

Wouldn't the same comment apply to not using pattern stances in sparring? How about not using pattern footwork?

 

[TrueJim]

I am rather negative towards that many TKD school teaches boxing and not only TKD strikes. That's really an admission of inferiority. Boxing has no place in TKD from a principled stand point. And the instruction in a TKD school is bound to be sub optimal compared to that of a real boxing school. I don't think it gives much.

I could be mistaken, but I don't believe weapons training (how to use weapons) is a part of the formal ITF/Chang Hon or WTF/Kukkiwon curricula either. From what I hear, a lot of schools also teach some grappling/throwing techniques beyond what's a formal part of either curricula too. How do you feel about those things (weapons and additional techniques) being taught in taekwondo schools?

 

[Laplace_demon]

[QUOTE="Earl Weiss, post: 1703787, member:

Wouldn't the same comment apply to not using pattern stances in sparring? How about not using pattern footwork?[/QUOTE]

Mr Weiss, modifing TKD strikes and teaching straight up boxing punches against mitts is not the same thing. There are martial arts which do use stances from patterns in free sparring. Traditional Shotokan kumite for an example. Stances in Shotokan are only deep for beginner and intermediate students. They are natural for advanced levels.

Teaching BJJ in TKD dojos is equally an admission of art inferiority. I know many that do. Bizzare.

 

[TrueJim]

Teaching BJJ in TKD dojos is equally an admission of art inferiority. I know many that do. Bizzare.

Would you say that this is true for any martial arts school that teaches anything outside the formal curriculum of that art?

 

[Earl Weiss]

[QUOTE="Earl Weiss, post: 1703787, member:

Teaching BJJ in TKD dojos is equally an admission of art inferiority. I know many that do. Bizzare.

Wouldn't the same apply for the BJJ guy who trains in another art to improve their striking (admission of inferiority of BJJ) so they can compete more effectively in MMA? .

 

[Laplace_demon]

Wouldn't the same apply for the BJJ guy who trains in another art to improve their striking (admission of inferiority of BJJ) so they can compete more effectively in MMA? .

In a BJJ school, yes. Why do you think I would single out TKD?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Btw Mr Weiss, your claim that ITF TKD strikes/kicks are those found in a patterns cannot be true. TKD strikes/kicks part of the curriculum but absent from ITF patterns include: Jumping back kick, jumping side kick, Hook kick, Tornado etc. Plenty of combat techniques missing from patterns.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Several aerial kicks in breaking demonstrations are also not featured in Chois patterns.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Several aerial kicks in breaking demonstrations are also not featured in Chois patterns.

This is true. However, a jump 1080 round kick is still a round kick. Plus, if you watch those old videos you'll notice that many of the aerial kicking techniques we see today didn't exist back then. That's true in many athletic endeavors. Today's athletes innovate and push the limits. Tomorrow's athletes will likely push the boundaries further. Taekwondo is not static. It is like language, constantly changing.

 

[Laplace_demon]

This is true. However, a jump 1080 round kick is still a round kick. Plus, if you watch those old videos you'll notice that many of the aerial kicking techniques we see today didn't exist back then. That's true in many athletic endeavors. Today's athletes innovate and push the limits. Tomorrow's athletes will likely push the boundaries further. Taekwondo is not static. It is like language, constantly changing.

I have Chois Encyklopedia from 1965, in PDF containing aerial kick demonstrations that did not make it in his patterns. They are fairly basic.

Hook kick is not an aerial.

 

[Jaeimseu]

I have Chois Encyklopedia from 1965, in PDF containing aerial kick demonstrations that did not make it in his patterns. They are fairly basic.

Hook kick is not an aerial.

Do you know when the last pattern was completed? Do you expect patterns to be updated every time a new technique surfaces?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Do you know when the last pattern was completed? Do you expect patterns to be updated every time a new technique surfaces?

I would assume somewhere in 1966, since that's when all had been completed.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In a BJJ school, yes. Why do you think I would single out TKD?

Well, Royce Gracie took Muay Thai classes to improve his striking so you conclude he acknowledges the inferiority of BJJ.

I can guess why you single out TKD, but there is no real point in guessing, you can simply tell us.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Well, Royce Gracie took Muay Thai classes to improve his striking so you conclude he acknowledges the inferiority of BJJ.

I can guess why you single out TKD, but there is no real point in guessing, you can simply tell us.

I don't single out TKD. And it is an admission of art inferiority for a school to teach rival styles techniques. Which ever school of style it might be.

 

[Gnarlie]

I don't single out TKD. And it is an admission of art inferiority for a school to teach rival styles techniques. Which ever school of style it might be.

It's a rather closed and immature view that sees other styles as rivals.

 

[Laplace_demon]

It's a rather closed and immature view that sees other styles as rivals.

It's a rival method at the very least. You are stuck on semantics instead of the bigger point.