Multiple attackers, from OUR perspective

[bujuts]

I'd like to address a topic I've not seen to much training on. I've gotten a few responses on another forum, but I seek more perspectives.

The topic is multiple enemies. But this time, I address the issue of how several martial artists (the good guys, i.e. us) deal with a single or fewer assailants. Most martial artists work little to nothing to do with coordinated attacks, but its something worth considering. At first, some might think training to fight two or three against one, five against three, etc., would be unethical, not the martial WAY, not fair, or not necessary.

But how do three martial artists of, say, mediocre talent deal with an aggressive menace with a knife? When the stakes are bumped up, and mutilation and possible death are at hand, caution and regard go out the window. The assailant must go down, period. Do we deal with him one at a time? Do we let our alpha go in and the rest join in when the time is right? An uncoordinated effort could spell suicide for all three if the knife fighter know's what he's doing. It is my understanding that this has most applicability in military combatives, but I'd think its almost a necessity for law enforcement to have a grasp on.

On that topic, I've always found it frustrating to see twenty police officers scrambling over and into one another to cath one suspect, then more fumbling as five climb over each other to detain him. Nothing against police officers, mind you, but it does happen. I spoke to one just last night about the subject. Granted he's received no S.W.A.T training or otherwise, but he laughed and told me the dog-pile method is what is always used. Though extensive training in this area aren't required for most, it's at least worth looking into.

I ask the rest of the forum, then, do you train at all for such situations requiring coordinated attacks / submissions? How do you train and what has been your success?

I hope the discussion proves educational to all reading it.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
Universal Kenpo Federation

 

[Karasu Tengu]

Actually in our art we do. We still have traditional battlefield tactics using both long and short range weapons and empty hand techniques. The setup is anywhere from 2 to 12 or more members moving and positioning themselves under the direction of a "team leader". For modern times, what are the chances of you and your schoolmates being attacked when you are all together? What weapons do you have available to you (i.e. a good leather belt and heavy buckle that can be swung or whipped). Family is a different matter. Is your family trained as you are? A lot of factors are involved. Let's not forget situational awareness either.

The dog pile method work well in crowds and when the enemy is not shooting at anyone. If they have a knife you can be assured "someone" is going to get cut so "someone" needs to control the weapon.

My 2 cents

 

[fringe_dweller]

I believe that the only time you will see one person initiate something with multiple people will be when they have a substantial advantage (read: gun) or they are drunk.

In both situations, I suggest trying to diffuse the situation or getting out of there. The question is, can people's egos stand walking away from a fight?

 

[Rich Parsons]

If you train in a team then the team does well.

If your training in concepts that can be applied in variable team sizes and people can cover the different positions then it will function well.

I have been in situations where there was myself against a group and myself and a few friends against a larger group.

Mindset and tactics, help. Luck is the biggest contributor in my experience.

:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

W/ 3 unarmed against 1 trained knife perp., chances are at least one of the 3 unarmed will be cut. Will you take the chance that it could be you?

It is very difficult to deal with a trained knife assialent. I have seen footage of how the cops handle it. They don't get close enough for the guy to cut them. They outnumber him greatly and try to get him to submit before anyone has to lay hands on anyone. They've closed off entire highways due to 1 knife assialent. They've had stand off's for 8 hours or more with no hostage involved, just due to 1 bladed weapon perp. And out of all of these conflicts, many of them ended with the knife person either submitting by dropping the knife, or the knife person is shot. Rarely is the knife fighter subdued without severe injury to one or more parties.

Why would the cops be willing to have a standoff against just one guy with a knife? Because they know through historical precidence that if they have to go in there just to subdue him, someone probably will get cut, and someone may get killed.

Now, I am talking about a lot more cops then 3 unarmed people.

Your just talking about 3 unarmed people; well this is tough. I think that it will depend on the motives of the 3 people and the knife assailent. If the knife assalient isn't intent on really hurting anyone with the knife, then 3 unarmed martial artists may be able to subdue him. If he is determined to maim or kill before his capture, then this severely changes the odds. The 3 martial artists can't just go in there half cocked to "subdue him," because they will be killed. If the 3 goes in to "stop" him through any means nessicary, even if it means the assailents death, then they might have chance.

My only advise is don't do it. If it has to be done, however, never go in empty handed. The 3 unarmed should pick up a chair, a large coat, or anything large that can be used to smother the attacker against a wall or the ground so that the knife can be successfully take away.

Just be prepared that you or your friends may be cut or killed in the process, or you may have to kill the assailent to stop him.

PAUL

 

[MA-Caver]

I was with a group of friends (3) returning home from a movie and we got "jumped" by one guy wielding a knife. We looked at him, looked at each other and giggled and walked around him and continued our merry way. Needless to say this guy's ego was punctured enough that he probably went home crying.
It's monumentally stupid to try and take on more than one person unless you got a gun. Yeah a knife CAN be intimidating but it's still stupid because most folks SHOULD know that MA's do train against weaponry. But www.darwinawards.com does show that our gene pool still needs to be flushed out from time to time.

Paul is correct that cops know better not to risk getting cut by taking on a knife wielding assailant. They got guns...uhh DUH dude who's gonna win? They don't want to shoot anyone, guns they have are for their protection and the protection of the citizens they swore to protect...(???? too much protection I think?:rofl: ).

Unarmed against a knife? Judgement call... can you three/four or how-ever-many run? Do so. Think about attacking because all of the sudden the attacker is the attack-ee and now will wield that knife with more desperate motions to protect him/herself. If no way out then coats, shirts or a bigger weapon (i.e. 2X4 if handy) to take him down. Be ready to get cut unless the attacker is a total klutz and drops the knife at the first moment of contact.
Use your training to do something smart. Remove the first threat: Knife then remove the second: attacker.