multiple atackers

[Manny]

How many of you train againts multiple atackers inside dojang/dojo? Talking about TKD the only two times I have to engage with more than two people was on my black belt examinations (1st dan and 2nd dan tests), I can remeber in my fisrt dan text that one of the guys was almost 2 meters tall and it was a little rough to fight this guy plus the other two.

However we don't train this way in a regular basis.

Manny

 

[SahBumNimRush]

We practice defense against multiple attackers as black belts, from a standard one step from multiples, free style self-defense, and sparring. We train in both unarmed and weapons with multiple attackers. It isn't something we do every class, but we do train with it.

Saturday was our quarterly promotion examination, and I was an attacker for my father (who tested for 6th dan) and another one of my instructors (who also tested for 6th dan). Both of which were multiple attack scenarios.

 

[dancingalone]

Don't teach it yet in my TKD class as the people are too green to explore this idea just yet. I do plan to incorporate some drills intended to familiarize them with the basics of what to do when attacked by > 1 person however.

The ideas explored will include at least

• obtaining the edge of the conflict and maintaining it
• stacking your opponents so you ideally can be attacked by only 1 at a time
• treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people
• being in the 'moment' so as to strike and move on rather than becoming entangled with one attacker
• special considerations caused by the presence of weapons like blades or clubs or rocks

 

[Manny]

The ideas explored will include at least

• obtaining the edge of the conflict and maintaining it
• stacking your opponents so you ideally can be attacked by only 1 at a time
• treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people
• being in the 'moment' so as to strike and move on rather than becoming entangled with one attacker
• special considerations caused by the presence of weapons like blades or clubs or rocks

I like your ideas a lot, they seem to have a good structure, will yuo explain a little more each one?

Manny

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Don't teach it yet in my TKD class as the people are too green to explore this idea just yet. I do plan to incorporate some drills intended to familiarize them with the basics of what to do when attacked by > 1 person however.

The ideas explored will include at least

• obtaining the edge of the conflict and maintaining it
• stacking your opponents so you ideally can be attacked by only 1 at a time
• treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people
• being in the 'moment' so as to strike and move on rather than becoming entangled with one attacker
• special considerations caused by the presence of weapons like blades or clubs or rocks

One of the first things we cover when first introducing this to students is Dancing's second point. However, all of his points are worthy of taking note!

 

[dancingalone]

I like your ideas a lot, they seem to have a good structure, will yuo explain a little more each one?

Was there a particular question you had, Manny? Knowing that would help me write a response rather than just a discombobulated 'core dump' which could be unintelligible if you've never delved into the topic before.

 

[dortiz]

All good points but as mentioned stacking is the secret.

You should practice this as much as you can as it will prove very helpfull in real situations.

 

[chrispillertkd]

We do it at my instructors' school on a fairly regular basis. Not weekly or anything, but certainly by the time a student tests for I dan they've sparred two people multiple times. Sparring multiple opponents starts at 2nd or 1st gup and when you test for I dan you spar 2 people. You spar two people again for II dan. For III and IV dan you spar three people. The most I've faced off against was 4. That wasn't exactly what I'd call a fun experience. It was more like running from a gang! :lol:

When sparring multiple opponents it's imperative to control the opponents' movement, using them to block each other out so only one gets a clear shot at you at a time. The opponent you face should be dealt with quickly and forcefully, no time for playing around really.

Last October I attended a seminar with Master Wheatley and we actually covered facing multiple opponents. I won't say we sparred because whwt we were doing certainly wasn't competetive free sparring. Grabs, throws, using the opponent as a shield, etc. were all covered. A great time but boy were you tired when you were finished.

Pax,

Chris

 

[job]

My art teaches the defense against multiple attackers from when a student is just starting to get a feel for the basics. The defense may be obstacle defense, using chairs, doorways , running, someone else to block etc.We practice this from the moment we start teaching our Kata. Attackers don't care that you are a beginner. If anything they pray upon the defenseless or the idea you are defenseless. We train at the end of all our sessions with (2) persons on one. Beginners are included. The first thought is always to get away.

 

[dancingalone]

My art teaches the defense against multiple attackers from when a student is just starting to get a feel for the basics.

Which art would this be? I looked at your profile and it mentions 'gun tau ou der'. Could you tell us a bit more about it?

 

[job]

Gun Tau Kun Tau is a generic term for Kung Fu Mostly you will hear Kun tau from Indonesian area practitioners. My style comes from Taiwan. I have almost 35 years in this particular art. I started martial arts training in the early 1960's. I was a wrestler, Judoka and practiced Kenpo karate before Gun Tau. Gun Tau is my favored art.

 

[Manny]

The ideas explored will include at least

• obtaining the edge of the conflict and maintaining it
• stacking your opponents so you ideally can be attacked by only 1 at a time
• treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people
• being in the 'moment' so as to strike and move on rather than becoming entangled with one attacker
• special considerations caused by the presence of weapons like blades or clubs or rocks

Ok Dancing let's start this thing ok?

1.-Define or give an example of obtain the edge of the conflict and maintining it.
2.-Stacking your oponentes is something that we are taught so I try to ling up the three atacckers and don't let them sorround me this is something we must avoid, I like to use what ever is in my hands to achieve this, some times I grab one of the bad gus and use him as a shield while kicking and keeping at bay rhe other two guys, sometimes I just move like the aikidokas do in ramdori.
3.-How can I treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people?
4.-being in the 'moment' so as to strike and move on rather than becoming entangled with one attacker. I got it, no problem.
5.-special considerations caused by the presence of weapons like blades or clubs or rocks. This is something we don't do but it's worth to do it, one never know who of the bad guy can bring a knive or handgun.

When I did my 1st dan black belt examination the only things I could wear was my shin pads and a groing cup, the blows were hard and you can use what ever tech you want but eye pcoking, bitting and hair pulling... ahhh and groin shots were forbiden.

When I did my second dan black belt examn we could use hogu, helmet and shin/instep pad, elbow pads,globes,mouthpiece groin cup,etc,etc.

In kenpo class we practiced the techs using three atackers, yes it was some kind of coreografy aplying the techs learned however sometimes we used what ever resourse we had to defend ourselves, this kind of drills I really liked cause I could express myself free and most of the times I used a mix up of kenpo/tkd so basically I did not follow the drill exactly the same but as things hapened, you know very fast and some times very nasty.

As you may see, inside TKD I only twice or no more than three times spared with multiple atackers, most of thr times we do kyorugi, one steps and Ho Si Sool with only one foe and nothing else.

Manny

 

[searcher]

I cover the basic ideas and concepts of going against multiple attackers. And we may drill it at a slower spedd or we may have some fun sparring against multiple attackers, but we don't train for it specifically. EPAK has some 2 man techniques, but I am not a fan of them.

I feel it would be almost impossible to prepare for multiple attackers outside of working basics of SD. It would be like trying to have a D technique for every attack. You may have one for every attack, but your brain would make your reaction time super slow. If you have to think, you die where you fall. JMHO.

 

[Earl Weiss]

For a book with nice diagrams / strategies for multiple attack and defense try "What the Masters Know"

Funky title . OK Book.

 

[dancingalone]

1.-Define or give an example of obtain the edge of the conflict and maintining it.

This just means staying on the outside of the attackers with suitable distance between you to allow proper reaction time. There's a lot to think about here. You'll likely be moving backwards or sideways or to a rear or frontal 45 degree angle most of the time here, so the type of footwork executed can be very important with the type of terrain. Surroundings should also be considered. For example, if you can use an existing structure like a parked car as an impediment, you'll want to.

3.-How can I treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people?

It's just a matter of mental state. The point is that if we let ourselves think that we have to fight 3 or more people, this can be very overwhelming mentally and we're more likely to make key mistakes. The worst thing we can do is to think of three targets to destroy or three sets of arms and legs to counter again. It's impossible to pull off.

Instead if we can visualize the mass of opponents as some weird octopus monster, we can deal with only 1 attack at a time. Counter, move on, survive. Repeat the cycle until the opportunity for escape provides itself.

 

[StudentCarl]

Looking at the opposites is educational:

obtaining the edge of the conflict and maintaining it

vs. get in the middle where you can't see everyone at once.

stacking your opponents so you ideally can be attacked by only 1 at a time

vs. wrap them around you so you can be attacked by all at once and have your limbs outnumbered

treating the mass of attackers as a single entity with multiple limbs rather than separate people

vs. see them as an overwhelming number of separate threats to increase your fear

being in the 'moment' so as to strike and move on rather than becoming entangled with one attacker

vs. focus only on one attacker for too long and give the others time to get the best setup on you

special considerations caused by the presence of weapons like blades or clubs or rocks

vs. not aware or ignore immediate deadly threats

Time is also important to discuss, since it is your enemy. With 3 opponents, in the time you take one step, they take 3. Any step you take needs to lead directly to escape or attack. A defensive step is okay if it is also an attacking step. A step that is purely defensive makes your situation worse. This is one reason why awareness is so important: if you don't make your move until your opponents are set up exactly the way they want to be, you chances of surviving are very small.

Carl

 

[job]

Fighting multiple opponents always get into the down and dirty right away. Have you ever seen a real incidence where someone is being attacked by multiple opponents? It usually happens without warning or they do surround you. Depending on the attack. You should be practicing all ways to defend. Straight on, the obliques, behind. The ultimate goal is always to survive. You may not have the chance to keep your distance. You may end up on the ground. When we practice, it is as real as possible without warning. We are usually practicing one step or practicing striking (2) opponents and we have 2 -3 people try to take you down. There are very few times it looks pretty. Sometimes it just flows well. When we test which is only for brown and black. You never know when, who or how many are coming at you. There may be a pause in the attack and you have a split second to catch your breath. You may be in the middle of a kata, you may be coming out of the bathroom. Hopefully nobody is going to have this happen to them. When I was 14 years old I had (7) persons attack me after a wrestling practice. I knew it was coming. I went to the ground with the initial attacker. I had him and was getting the better of him when feet just started coming at me from all sides kicks in the ribs punches at my head and face. For the most part I did not get hurt badly. There was too much going on. The attackers weren't organized. Fortunately, I was not rendered unconscious or completely controlled, otherwise I would have been really hurt. The bottom line to multiple attacks is to practice as many ways as possible . I also know that if you don't put yourself in the predicament it will probably never arise. This goes for all altercations.
Quote : Imperfect practice is perfect practice. Practice is the time to make mistakes