Multiple Arts Revisited

[MJS]

Many times when people talk about training in more than one art, others will chime in saying that its impossible to do more than one art at the same time, there is no need to train more than one art and it can take a lifetime to grasp the aspects of one art, nevermind two.

So, for those that do train more than one, what are your goals? Are you looking to extract everything from that second art, or certain things? Do you adjust easily with two or more arts?

I ask this because in a recent thread in the Kenpo section, I noticed more than one person state the importance of looking outside the art. Wanted feedback from others as well.

Mike

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I primarily am a jujutsu practioner. I do a little cross-training in BBT and Arnis mostly to make myself think outside the jujutsu box. It gives me a wonderfully different perspective.

Jeff

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I've been training in Kenpo for a long time. These days, besides my kenpo lessons I train from time to time in several other arts.

Fifth dan requirements in my organization include a black belt in another art.

I agree that during your first years, multiple arts can muddy the waters and stunt growth.

But after a time, cross training brings perspective and helps us to approach mastery.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yang style taiji and Chen style taiji for a few reasons, mainly I like Chen to much to not train it and I have done Yang to long to stop. Also they have different ways to deal with an attacker. Where Yang swill redirect, take the center and throw someone on the ground Chen will redirect take the center and hit the opponent hard using Faijing. Not that Yang does not use fajing it is just that it uses it less.

Sanda because is gives a whole different mind set in how to approach a confrontation. Taiji would not generally use attack as defense where sanda may. This is also why I trained Xingyi; it was for the most part all about attack as defense. In Sanda, much to my surprise, I see a compromise between the two.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I have taken trial courses in many of the arts I was interested in but mostly stuck to Traditional Karate, Kickboxing and Jiu Jitsu. From what I've gathered I feel there are things that work good for me and things that don't from other arts. I appreciate the simultanaousness and "energy-feel" of wing chun, but I feel unable to put sufficient power into my punches, whereas in Kempo, the punches use so much more shoulder and I find that it works better for me to deal a "business" strike. My experience in both these arts is quite limited. I feel kickboxing helped me understand how to use my karate better to adapt my karate more to the way people move in sparring and I think everyone could use some jiu jitsu, chin-na or pankration in their armoury. So many arts can be so different yet have the same moves like the cross-face in pankration and the one-leg-chin strike takedown in the neseishi bunkai. The stances and method of practice differ but the concept of controlling the neck to control the body is universal (I believe, some people are sickeningly flexible).

 

[searcher]

Many times when people talk about training in more than one art, others will chime in saying that its impossible to do more than one art at the same time, there is no need to train more than one art and it can take a lifetime to grasp the aspects of one art, nevermind two.

So, for those that do train more than one, what are your goals? Are you looking to extract everything from that second art, or certain things? Do you adjust easily with two or more arts?

Mike

For some one art will take all of their focus and brain, whereas others are capable of multitasking.

My goals are to learn as much as I can without overloading. It will be time to stop when I have trouble remembering what I am doing and making use of the knowledge I have been given.

When looking for a "new" art I try to find an area that I may be lacking and try to find onethat will fill the space. It is kind of like a puzzle with each style being a separate piece. If the piece oyu are looking at does not fit your individual puzzle then it is better to move on to a piece that will work.

It can be difficult juggling two styles at the same time. I train in TKD and teach Chito-ryu and Kobudo mixed with some other styles I have been fortunate to train in. I am happy I have instructors who are very patient and knowledgable.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Many times when people talk about training in more than one art, others will chime in saying that its impossible to do more than one art at the same time, there is no need to train more than one art and it can take a lifetime to grasp the aspects of one art, nevermind two.

So, for those that do train more than one, what are your goals? Are you looking to extract everything from that second art, or certain things? Do you adjust easily with two or more arts?

I ask this because in a recent thread in the Kenpo section, I noticed more than one person state the importance of looking outside the art. Wanted feedback from others as well.

Mike

I practice and teach two arts. I hope to continue to learn both arts even if nothing more than self improvement. Both are FMA's and have a cross over in lineage. Neither is a super-set to the other. I hope to honor both my instructors and teach both systems.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Many times when people talk about training in more than one art, others will chime in saying that its impossible to do more than one art at the same time, there is no need to train more than one art and it can take a lifetime to grasp the aspects of one art, nevermind two.

So, for those that do train more than one, what are your goals? Are you looking to extract everything from that second art, or certain things? Do you adjust easily with two or more arts?

I ask this because in a recent thread in the Kenpo section, I noticed more than one person state the importance of looking outside the art. Wanted feedback from others as well.

Mike

Personally, I like the idea of studying one or two arts and no more. The arts I do study are both complex and comprehensive so I find I do not need to go outside this sphere.

I can see people a number of arts without difficulty, there is, after all, a lot of overlap in MAs. Studying them comprehensively? That might be problematic, but might be possible.

The thing that always makes me gunshy of multiple art practitioners are the encounters I have had with such people. These people were not really interested in any in depth learning, just snapping up a technique here and a technique there and then moving on. However, they all professed a desire to learn much more. This is not the same as someone who's professed aim is to supplement training in another art. such a person is very likely to take on only a few techniques then move on.

Then are those long lists of extremely high dan folk you see from time to time (OK maybe more frequently than that), suggesting these people have devoted anequal amount of time and effort to eight or ten arts to achieve disturbingly high ranks. What else can I say, it just makes me suspicious of multiple art study. With no good reason I might add.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

My problem is that I don't feel I can give any martial art a fair shot if I don't do it for at least a couple months. I have to go by reputation and a small amount of time. I don't think this gives me an accurate view of what the art has to offer me. I think it's essential to try a few before you dive in and spend 3 years. Depending on what you're looking for, you might need to supplement different arts to fill different holes in your system. It also encourages fluidity and growth. To me the arts are just names. It's the individual who needs to grow.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

If the arts are just names, then you don't need to play the field before getting married. And you're right.

Your instructor and the culture of your training environment will matter much, much more than your choice of style. Gigging around from art to art means you learn the same lessons over and over again, rather than moving to the next level.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

You need a strong foundation. The lessons you learn first are likely to be the most important.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Absolutely correct. Your foundation will begin to be strong after you commit to a single art for a few years.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Espeacially when you have a good instructor.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Mike,

I think I know which thread in Kenpotalk you are referring to. I will go ahead and post my initial reply in that thread, here. Hope it adds to the discussion:



"I don't bother to justify it, I just have a wide range of interests and I pursue those. I jokingly refer to it as "The Curse of the Perpetually Curious". It starts with training in one art for a while, then you eventually look over there and see some people doing something else that also looks good. So I wander over and take some classes to see what it's all about, and the next thing I know, I'm hooked. But not willing to give up the first one, I start to practice them both. Then another art catches my attention, and another after that...

I was a shodan in Tracy kenpo before I trained in another method, but perhaps part of that was because I was living in a small town at the time and there were no other options until I moved out.

I have trained in arts that are vastly different. After kenpo, I tinkered in a little judo and a certain messy conglomeration of Chinese arts that shall remain nameless. I eventually left that stuff behind. Not interested enough to keep doing it.

Later, I fell into capoeira and trained it like a fiend for a number of years. Couldn't get enough of it. Didn't do much kenpo during this time. Then, got into legitimate Chinese arts, stuff that was very very different from kenpo and capoeira, and even from each other. Tibetan White Crane is a highly mobile, longarm method. Probably as long as you can get without holding a weapon in your hand. But I also learned Wing Chun, probably the shortest range method you can get without actually grappling. And throw some tai chi chuan in there as well. Mostly Chen style, but a little Yang and Sun as well. And some elements of Shaolin as well. And all these arts have very different approaches to training, and basics, and stances, etc. And now I am retraining my kenpo with a new teacher, after being mostly away from it for 15 years or so.

So how do I not get confused? I don't know exactly, but I don't get confused. When I train kenpo, I train kenpo. When I train Wing Chun, I train Wing Chun. Same with White Crane, and Tai Chi, and Capoeira. I don't mix them up. I don't combine them. I keep their elements distinct from each other because if you mix them up, then you can find yourself trying to deal with conflicting material. But the techniques of each art, when trained from it's proper respective base, works well. Trying to throw White Crane punches from a Wing Chun base just does not work at all. Trying to work kenpo SD techs from Capoeira's ginga base would be an uphill battle. But at the same time, learning each art will in some way influence how you do your others.

But I believe that if you need to actually fight, you can mix it up then and pull out what is appropriate, and you will probably naturally fall back on what you are most comfortable with and that might not be equal from one method to the other. Just don't mix it when training.

In the Chinese arts, training in several methods seems to me to be much more common. There is a more open attitude about it, most of the good teachers have done it, even if they ultimately focus and specialize in just one method. But gaining that broad understanding is seen as a positive thing. The methods are different, but that doesn't make them wrong. Learn them for what they are, and then later decide if it might be wrong or right FOR YOU. But that doesn't mean it is wrong or right in an absolute way. And eventually, you will probably settle on one or two methods that are best for you.

I think there can be an attitudinal danger among people who have only trained in one art. They may become very very skilled in their own art. But they sometimes also have the attitude that their own art does everything "right", and everyone else somehow has it "wrong". In my opinion, "right and wrong" are often not absolutes, when it comes to martial arts. If you ever saw how we do things in Tibetan White Crane, or Capoeira, you would probably think it is really messed up, if you look at it from a kenpo perspective, violating all kinds of kenpo "rules" and what not. But some of the guys who do these arts are scary good, and you would not want to mess with them. It can also be tremendously effective. These other arts have no interest in validating what they do thru a kenpo perspective. In fact, they often look at kenpo and say "what's all that nonsense?" I've had my own teachers in the Chinese arts express that exact sentiment. Kenpo has it's own methods that are somewhat unique, and make it pretty foreign when viewed by others.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I believe the real codification of the arts into THIS or THAT particular art is somewhat newer in history. I don't have any research to back this up, it is just my opinion from what I have read and observed over the years. So elements of many "methods" got borrowed and shared over time, and there was often less of a notion of "crosstraining", because in some way, much of this stuff was considered just another part of the greater whole, so why not learn it and bring it in to what you are doing, and there was little notion of conflict in doing this. Now as I expressed earlier, I definitely dont' think EVERYTHING can be mixed up, at least not in training. But an openness to learning other things should be.

Just my opinion."

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Hi Mike,

I think I know which thread in Kenpotalk you are referring to. I will go ahead and post my initial reply in that thread, here. Hope it adds to the discussion:



"I don't bother to justify it, I just have a wide range of interests and I pursue those. I jokingly refer to it as "The Curse of the Perpetually Curious". It starts with training in one art for a while, then you eventually look over there and see some people doing something else that also looks good. So I wander over and take some classes to see what it's all about, and the next thing I know, I'm hooked. But not willing to give up the first one, I start to practice them both. Then another art catches my attention, and another after that...

I was a shodan in Tracy kenpo before I trained in another method, but perhaps part of that was because I was living in a small town at the time and there were no other options until I moved out.

I have trained in arts that are vastly different. After kenpo, I tinkered in a little judo and a certain messy conglomeration of Chinese arts that shall remain nameless. I eventually left that stuff behind. Not interested enough to keep doing it.

Later, I fell into capoeira and trained it like a fiend for a number of years. Couldn't get enough of it. Didn't do much kenpo during this time. Then, got into legitimate Chinese arts, stuff that was very very different from kenpo and capoeira, and even from each other. Tibetan White Crane is a highly mobile, longarm method. Probably as long as you can get without holding a weapon in your hand. But I also learned Wing Chun, probably the shortest range method you can get without actually grappling. And throw some tai chi chuan in there as well. Mostly Chen style, but a little Yang and Sun as well. And some elements of Shaolin as well. And all these arts have very different approaches to training, and basics, and stances, etc. And now I am retraining my kenpo with a new teacher, after being mostly away from it for 15 years or so.

So how do I not get confused? I don't know exactly, but I don't get confused. When I train kenpo, I train kenpo. When I train Wing Chun, I train Wing Chun. Same with White Crane, and Tai Chi, and Capoeira. I don't mix them up. I don't combine them. I keep their elements distinct from each other because if you mix them up, then you can find yourself trying to deal with conflicting material. But the techniques of each art, when trained from it's proper respective base, works well. Trying to throw White Crane punches from a Wing Chun base just does not work at all. Trying to work kenpo SD techs from Capoeira's ginga base would be an uphill battle. But at the same time, learning each art will in some way influence how you do your others.

But I believe that if you need to actually fight, you can mix it up then and pull out what is appropriate, and you will probably naturally fall back on what you are most comfortable with and that might not be equal from one method to the other. Just don't mix it when training.

In the Chinese arts, training in several methods seems to me to be much more common. There is a more open attitude about it, most of the good teachers have done it, even if they ultimately focus and specialize in just one method. But gaining that broad understanding is seen as a positive thing. The methods are different, but that doesn't make them wrong. Learn them for what they are, and then later decide if it might be wrong or right FOR YOU. But that doesn't mean it is wrong or right in an absolute way. And eventually, you will probably settle on one or two methods that are best for you.

I think there can be an attitudinal danger among people who have only trained in one art. They may become very very skilled in their own art. But they sometimes also have the attitude that their own art does everything "right", and everyone else somehow has it "wrong". In my opinion, "right and wrong" are often not absolutes, when it comes to martial arts. If you ever saw how we do things in Tibetan White Crane, or Capoeira, you would probably think it is really messed up, if you look at it from a kenpo perspective, violating all kinds of kenpo "rules" and what not. But some of the guys who do these arts are scary good, and you would not want to mess with them. It can also be tremendously effective. These other arts have no interest in validating what they do thru a kenpo perspective. In fact, they often look at kenpo and say "what's all that nonsense?" I've had my own teachers in the Chinese arts express that exact sentiment. Kenpo has it's own methods that are somewhat unique, and make it pretty foreign when viewed by others.

Another thing to keep in mind is that I believe the real codification of the arts into THIS or THAT particular art is somewhat newer in history. I don't have any research to back this up, it is just my opinion from what I have read and observed over the years. So elements of many "methods" got borrowed and shared over time, and there was often less of a notion of "crosstraining", because in some way, much of this stuff was considered just another part of the greater whole, so why not learn it and bring it in to what you are doing, and there was little notion of conflict in doing this. Now as I expressed earlier, I definitely dont' think EVERYTHING can be mixed up, at least not in training. But an openness to learning other things should be.

Just my opinion."

I agreez. At least try it before you criticise it. The INDIVIDUAL, the TEACHER and the SITUATION, IMO, are so much more important than the art. The art is technique and concept. That's why I chose JKD to represent the way I do things. I haven't taken any official JKD and if the JKD practitioners don't like that, than pretend I called it something else.