Mount escapes?

[Hand Sword]

Hello Gang!

A question for the grappling specialists on here. Recently I was around some wrestlers and BJJ practitioners who were discussing escaping from the mount (top saddle) position. Both sides showed good workable stuff, so I'm not starting a "my art is better than yours" argument. I'm just questioning some specifics and looking for answers from the specialists here.

The BJJ people recommended trapping the foot with yours (if I'm explaining it right) when you arch, and roll them off. The wrestlers recommended not to do so and that you lay your leg flat so as to prevent a post out with the leg of the attacker.
In all of your practice of BJJ, has anyone posted their leg, preventing the roll or does trapping up their foot with yours work fine? I ask because while demonstrating each showed that their way worked and there was no flaws.

 

[MattJ]

In BJJ, we are shown to trap the opponent's ankle, so that they can't post out and stop the roll. It can be done without, but it's more difficult, IMHO.

 

[Hand Sword]

May I ask if you train where the opponent tries to post out for real? I'm guessing yes, so, are they ever successful? Rarely? Somewhat regularly?

 

[Steve]

If you don't trap the leg, they can post out with that leg and prevent the roll. If you do trap the leg and it's not deep enough, you risk being grapevined.

Ultimately, there is a counter to every technique. If my opponent is fully resisting, I might try to roll him (I will trap the ankle), and when that doesn't work, I will move to a hip escape. If that doesn't work, I might go BACK to the upa/roll or move to another escape. No one technique is better or worse. Well, that's not entirely true. Some techniques don't work. What I mean is, every good technique is only good when it's used in a proper situation/context. If I'm mounted by a solid wrestler, he's probably working to control me with a grapevine. I'm going to counter that differently than if he's working for a high mount (where his knees are up near my armpits). I'll counter sitting mount differently than S mount... it's all about context.

Suffice to say that I can think of at least a couple of good escapes where I would trap the ankle, and a couple more where I would leave my leg flat.

 

[Steve]

May I ask if you train where the opponent tries to post out for real? I'm guessing yes, so, are they ever successful? Rarely? Somewhat regularly?

Just to add to my previous post and specifically answer this question, I would say that if someone knows what you're going to do, they will be able to post out every single time. Against anyone with some experience, particularly in a position such as bottom mount which is about as disadvantageous as it gets, you will need to combine several techniques together, being mindful of submission attempts all the while.

Nothing beats time on the mats.

Hope this helps.

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Just to add to my previous post and specifically answer this question, I would say that if someone knows what you're going to do, they will be able to post out every single time. Against anyone with some experience, particularly in a position such as bottom mount which is about as disadvantageous as it gets, you will need to combine several techniques together, being mindful of submission attempts all the while.

Nothing beats time on the mats.

Hope this helps.

Greeting gentlemen,
Very good responses. If I may add my two cents. Trapping the arm and leg of one side is definitely one of the more successful ways to escape the mount, and if the opponent escapes and posts the leg to stop the buck and roll, he opens up a hole by your hip to shrimp out your leg from that side and acquire a half guard. Still not a complete escape, but it does change things.

I might also add, that it is important to keep under consideration, if you are training for more sport oriented reasons, or with a more combat oriented mindset. Two completely different scenarios, and require different training and responses. I wrote an article about this subject years ago, (I want to say for Black Belt Magazine), and there is a copy of the article, including photo examples on our website. You can find it here:

www.farangmusul.com/ArticlesME.htm

I agree, "nothing beats time on the mat". Also, keep an open mind and always stay hungry. Hope this is helpful.

With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

 

[Ybot]

Greeting gentlemen,
Very good responses. If I may add my two cents. Trapping the arm and leg of one side is definitely one of the more successful ways to escape the mount, and if the opponent escapes and posts the leg to stop the buck and roll, he opens up a hole by your hip to shrimp out your leg from that side and acquire a half guard. Still not a complete escape, but it does change things.

I might also add, that it is important to keep under consideration, if you are training for more sport oriented reasons, or with a more combat oriented mindset. Two completely different scenarios, and require different training and responses. I wrote an article about this subject years ago, (I want to say for Black Belt Magazine), and there is a copy of the article, including photo examples on our website. You can find it here:

www.farangmusul.com/ArticlesME.htm

I agree, "nothing beats time on the mat". Also, keep an open mind and always stay hungry. Hope this is helpful.

With respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim

Just read your article. Interesting read. Really curious what kinds of joint locks, or cranks you would recommend from the bottom of mount... seems very dangerous to me and seems like you would put yourself in much worse position trying such things. Thanks in advance.

 

[Andrew Green]

Just read your article. Interesting read. Really curious what kinds of joint locks, or cranks you would recommend from the bottom of mount... seems very dangerous to me and seems like you would put yourself in much worse position trying such things. Thanks in advance.

Did you check out his picture series, they should give you an idea on what he's thinking.

 

[Ybot]

Did you check out his picture series, they should give you an idea on what he's thinking.

I admit, I had not. Just looked at them, and I definitely see what he means by combat/survival vs. sport in those pictures, yet my question was in reference to what I read in his article.

Under the part titled "If you find that you were not able to avoid or derail being mounted, here are some key tips to negate and escape the mounted position." he lists as one of his points:

*** Other options are to apply joint locks or throat and neck cranks, right there as he is on top of you to "persuade" him off of you. Techniques such as arm bars, arm levers, wrist locks, finger cranks, hair pulls w/ jaw cranks, and other neck cranking techniques, etc. These moves are normally seen in stand up self defense, but translate very well in a combative ground fighting scenario.

My question was in reference to this. I was curious about the specifics of applying these things from the bottom in a self defense situation and general rules that make these things safe... It just doesn't seem safe to me, and even contrary to his other point under the same section that said:

*** By the same token, since he is in a superior position, you want to de-escalate the violence of the fight. Don't aggravate him by trying to punch or gouge him. You just might give him some bad ideas. Also, he may have a weapon or friends to assist him. Definitely not good for you. Keep a cool head, conserve your strength, and go with the flow. As soon as you see a window of opportunity, you must capitalize on it with efficient, effective tactics.

Seems to me that trying these things from an inferior position is a great way to aggravate the situation. But maybe I don't understand what he was referring to, and that's why I asked.

As a grappling instructor I am very interested in application under any and all circumstances, and even If I disagree with application I am interested in the rational behind such methods.

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

I admit, I had not. Just looked at them, and I definitely see what he means by combat/survival vs. sport in those pictures, yet my question was in reference to what I read in his article.

Under the part titled "If you find that you were not able to avoid or derail being mounted, here are some key tips to negate and escape the mounted position." he lists as one of his points:



My question was in reference to this. I was curious about the specifics of applying these things from the bottom in a self defense situation and general rules that make these things safe... It just doesn't seem safe to me, and even contrary to his other point under the same section that said:



Seems to me that trying these things from an inferior position is a great way to aggravate the situation. But maybe I don't understand what he was referring to, and that's why I asked.

As a grappling instructor I am very interested in application under any and all circumstances, and even If I disagree with application I am interested in the rational behind such methods.

Greetings,
Sorry but I was out of the country for a bit and am just getting back into the swing of things.

I will try to answer these questions. I can see how this might seem confusing to someone who doesn't train with me. Actually, these are not conflicting strategies or tactics. I stand by the statement of trying not to escalate the violence of the encounter if possible, as this may prove to be a bad idea. But by the same token, at times one must do what one must, in order to survive. It's all in the timing that matters.

In the same way that use of basic joint locks and similar tactics give one an advantage from the standing position, they do translate very well in grappling. They certainly are used as finishing or submission moves in grappling when one is on the offense, but we need to remember, that they also apply in many other ways.

If you are mounted and the opponent grabs your throat or wrist, (and I think we can all recall that happening during any grappling session), to apply a painful wrist lock or finger crank might just prove to be the turning point to get you out of hot water. The same goes for fish hooking, biting and other similar techniques. For example, one can pull hair or grab an ear in almost any grappling position, and that can change everything. Naturally, these should be done at the right time. Keeping a cool head and not panicking are key to not putting yourself into an even worse position.

I feel it is very important to not only know the difference between sport and combative grappling, but also to find safe ways to train them both. With our classmates, we are certainly not going to fishhook them to get out of a mount, but we can simulate them and even agree to include them in a controlled fashion, where cooperation and growth in understanding options is the goal, and not "winning" the grappling session. These types of skills need to be nurtured and developed as instinctive reflexes as much as any other type of training.

Boxing and kickboxing training includes sparring at reduced power, in order to develop other attributes we will need for the fight such as stamina, timing, combination's and so on. We can adapt this reduced power and cooperative sparring to our grappling and MMA training. The idea is to add or subtract techniques in our sessions. This way we are familiar and comfortable with them all. It's a win-win situation.

Hope this helps.
With much respect and brotherhood,
Kuk Sa Nim