Motivation time :)

[jobo]

Do you train BJJ?

I don't, but I'm pretty sure a big part of the system isn't simply physically memorizing movements. Some Karate (gulp, I train karate), Kung Fu, TKD, etc. places do this; demonstrate a kata proficiently, then you're promoted without ever understanding what the movements mean nor how to actually use them, let alone against a resisting partner/opponent. For the most part, BJJ don't play that.

And having a career, spouse, kids, etc. have a funny way of getting in the way. I can only make it to the dojo 2 nights a week. And it's a miracle that I can. During my first stint, I didn't have that.

its not a case of memory its making them instinctive bt constantly repeating them. That how we learn instinctive movement. That's how we learn to walk, then run, they play soccer pr what ever.

bjj is exactly that, programed movement, you oppoinent does this, you do that in response

 

[kuniggety]

they are simple movement patterns programed in to the brain by repeating over and over again, given a reasonable level of dedication and a reasonably agile brain, that shouldn't take a decade to acheive, it really shouldnt. People can learn to dance an awful lot quicker than that and its intrinsically the same process of learning movement

I've studied martial arts before that use forms. Sure they're a lot like dance. I studied a form of kung fu for a year and learned about 10 forms in one year and was at a point most of the other students were at with 3-5 years of training. BJJ just doesn't work that way. You never "complete the system". There are hundreds of techniques implemented in any number of combinations with many having multiple combinations within themselves. It's a journey of finding what works for your body against folks of different body types and sizes. The system is constantly evolving. I would argue that what is expected at each belt is higher than what it was 20 or 30 years ago because there were moves that weren't implemented in the art yet.

Our purple belt is approximately what most systems have as their black belt. That's the problem with arbitrarily setting a black belt as a goal as it means different things in different systems. For Some, black belt is an intermediate student. Some it's advanced. Some, such as BJJ, it means you're an expert and an inheritor of the system while many arts that means you're a 3rd or 4th degree black belt.

 

[JR 137]

its not a case of memory its making them instinctive bt constantly repeating them. That how we learn instinctive movement. That's how we learn to walk, then run, they play soccer pr what ever.

bjj is exactly that, programed movement, you oppoinent does this, you do that in response

Do you train BJJ? Have you ever trained BJJ? Any other grappling art (including the various forms of wrestling)?

If you have then you know it's not simply memorizing/ingraining movements. If you haven't, then case closed.

For the record, I wrestled from grade 3 through high school, and coached on the mat (not sitting in a chair barking orders) on and off for 10 years. I can easily say I've never seen a case of it being as simple as ingraining the movements and when x happens, do y. In theory and words on paper, yeah. On the mat, nope. Too many ifs.

 

[JR 137]

I've studied martial arts before that use forms. Sure they're a lot like dance. I studied a form of kung fu for a year and learned about 10 forms in one year and was at a point most of the other students were at with 3-5 years of training. BJJ just doesn't work that way. You never "complete the system". There are hundreds of techniques implemented in any number of combinations with many having multiple combinations within themselves. It's a journey of finding what works for your body against folks of different body types and sizes. The system is constantly evolving. I would argue that what is expected at each belt is higher than what it was 20 or 30 years ago because there were moves that weren't implemented in the art yet.

Our purple belt is approximately what most systems have as their black belt. That's the problem with arbitrarily setting a black belt as a goal as it means different things in different systems. For Some, black belt is an intermediate student. Some it's advanced. Some, such as BJJ, it means you're an expert and an inheritor of the system while many arts that means you're a 3rd or 4th degree black belt.

I've heard many times that a BJJ black belt (not even 1st degree BB) is equal to a typical karate 3rd dan in time it takes. A lot of variables in there, but it's not a bad general rule.

 

[JR 137]

it doesn't matter if they are professionals' or Sunday league, if you start playing with the big boys at 20 then you are unlikely to get a 14 year career out of it, before your too slow

I know plenty of guys well past 34 still playing a lot of sports competitively. Not saying they're elite pros, but still at it and very good.

 

[jobo]

Do you train BJJ? Have you ever trained BJJ? Any other grappling art (including the various forms of wrestling)?

If you have then you know it's not simply memorizing/ingraining movements. If you haven't, then case closed.

For the record, I wrestled from grade 3 through high school, and coached on the mat (not sitting in a chair barking orders) on and off for 10 years. I can easily say I've never seen a case of it being as simple as ingraining the movements and when x happens, do y. In theory and words on paper, yeah. On the mat, nope. Too many ifs.

I didn't say it was quite that simple, but learnt movement patterns are what it require for all sports,in fact all physical activities even walking. bjj isn't different than every thing else

 

[jobo]

I know plenty of guys well past 34 still playing a lot of sports competitively. Not saying they're elite pros, but still at it and very good.

and they will generaly be out performed by 20 year olds. Skill is generaly the last to go, its those ingrained movement patterns o was on about. I can land a soccer ball on a sixpence. I cant however out sprint 20 year olds tp catch it

 

[kuniggety]

I've heard many times that a BJJ black belt (not even 1st degree BB) is equal to a typical karate 3rd dan in time it takes. A lot of variables in there, but it's not a bad general rule.

Yeah, lots of variables in there like you mentioned but it's a good general rule IMO.

 

[Buka]

He must be at it again. Probably about BJJ.

 

[Headhunter]

Ah good a good old bjj vs the world argument

 

[drop bear]

the op said two years per grade, hence at least 14 years. It shouldn't take you 14 years to get the hang of anything.
if it does its a case of suboptimal students or teaching. Most sports men have a career that doesnt last 14 years

But artists do.

Actually I think the sportsman career is probably wrong as well.

Mike tysons career 1985-2005.

David Beckham 1991-2013

Greg Norman 1975-2009.

 

[Balrog]

Because quite often when those sort of people reach black, they stop training.

If they do, then shame on the instructor for not teaching them that achieving 1st Degree is like graduating high school. Now it's time to go to college and start learning advanced things.

 

[Paul_D]

If they do, then shame on the instructor for not teaching them that achieving 1st Degree is like graduating high school. Now it's time to go to college and start learning advanced things.

Yes, it's the instructors fault, because instructors never explain that to students

 

[jobo]

But artists do.

Actually I think the sportsman career is probably wrong as well.

Mike tysons career 1985-2005.

David Beckham 1991-2013

Greg Norman 1975-2009.

well golf isn't really a sport, its just a lot of walking about, if you can still walk your dog you can play golf
the other two ate exeptional human beings that are the exception that proves the rule
but that said, BD top class career, ran from 1992 to 2007, he hit the first team at an unusually young age of 17, so thats 15 years after that he went into USA soccer with a few cameo appearances FOR European teams. but his skill level was such he could still play well despite the,drop off in his physical ability



its much the same for Tyson, his career effectivly ended at the,age of 35, after that that it was freak,show fights because he had lost all his money.

commonly people start their professional/ best level career,at 19 or 20 and are finished by 32/33 because the physical drop of at that age is drastic. Finding a few folk that kept going a bit longer doesn't change that as a fact of human biology'

 

[drop bear]

well golf isn't really a sport, its just a lot of walking about, if you can still walk your dog you can play golf
the other two ate exeptional human beings that are the exception that proves the rule
but that said, BD top class career, ran from 1992 to 2007, he hit the first team at an unusually young age of 17, so thats 15 years after that he went into USA soccer with a few cameo appearances FOR European teams. but his skill level was such he could still play well despite the,drop off in his physical ability



its much the same for Tyson, his career effectivly ended at the,age of 35, after that that it was freak,show fights because he had lost all his money.

commonly people start their professional/ best level career,at 19 or 20 and are finished by 32/33 because the physical drop of at that age is drastic. Finding a few folk that kept going a bit longer doesn't change that as a fact of human biology'

If there are exeptions then it is not really a fact.

Plenty of athletes have 20 plus year careers. Martial artists can have exceptionally longer ones.

You can just say facts. They have to actually be facts.

 

[jobo]

If there are exeptions then it is not really a fact.

Plenty of athletes have 20 plus year careers. Martial artists can have exceptionally longer ones.

You can just say facts. They have to actually be facts.

no not plenty, a few freaks maybe. It's a fact that there is a massive drop of in physical performance in your early 30s, for a few that might not happen till there mid 30s, but it happens to them all.

 

[JR 137]

If there are exeptions then it is not really a fact.

Plenty of athletes have 20 plus year careers. Martial artists can have exceptionally longer ones.

You can just say facts. They have to actually be facts.

Average career lengths in pro sports are quite short. Key word being "average." You'll get a bunch of people playing for many years, and many more playing a year then getting cut, permanently injured, etc. who'll bring the average way down...

Report: Average length of NFL careers decreasing

I'd assume the NFL would be the shortest due to the high injury rate (NFL has a 100% injury rate, though I don't know how that statistic is measured).

Boxing, MMA and golf aren't reliable in length of career in years because the athletes don't stick to a regular schedule like team sports do.

And Mike Tyson's career length is skewed as he spent several years in jail during that stretch and had a few other periods of inactivity.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong; on the contrary I agree with you. The average player who actually plays day in and day out and has a career worth mentioning has a career far longer than the statistical averages.

Also factor in the time they spent at lower levels.

 

[jobo]

Average career lengths in pro sports are quite short. Key word being "average." You'll get a bunch of people playing for many years, and many more playing a year then getting cut, permanently injured, etc. who'll bring the average way down...

Report: Average length of NFL careers decreasing

I'd assume the NFL would be the shortest due to the high injury rate (NFL has a 100% injury rate, though I don't know how that statistic is measured).

Boxing, MMA and golf aren't reliable in length of career in years because the athletes don't stick to a regular schedule like team sports do.

And Mike Tyson's career length is skewed as he spent several years in jail during that stretch and had a few other periods of inactivity.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong; on the contrary I agree with you. The average player who actually plays day in and day out and has a career worth mentioning has a career far longer than the statistical averages.

Also factor in the time they spent at lower levels.

????????
your saying that an average sports man has a career far longer than the average. That's an impossibility

 

[JR 137]

Read it again...

"The average player who actually plays day in and day out and has a career worth mentioning has a career far longer than the statistical averages."

I have a friend that "played" two seasons in the NFL. He was on the Dallas Cowboys for a season, then traded to the NY Giants for a season. He was cut after the Giants' season ended. He "retired" (as he says) after that. He didn't play a single second in any game both years. He practiced everyday. He was good enough to make the team, yet not good enough to play in games.

And there are a ton of players across the league who are cut during and immediately after pre-season camp. They bring down the average career even more.

There's quite a few who fit the above mentioned scenarios in the NFL. And most other sports. These aren't "guys who play day in and day out and have careers worth mentioning." If you exclude players like that from overall averages, the "average player who actually plays day in and day out" has a career "far longer than the statistical averages."

Think about it.

????????
your saying that an average sports man has a career far longer than the average. That's an impossibility

 

[jobo]

Read it again...

"The average player who actually plays day in and day out and has a career worth mentioning has a career far longer than the statistical averages."

I have a friend that "played" two seasons in the NFL. He was on the Dallas Cowboys for a season, then traded to the NY Giants for a season. He was cut after the Giants' season ended. He "retired" (as he says) after that. He didn't play a single second in any game both years. He practiced everyday. He was good enough to make the team, yet not good enough to play in games.

And there are a ton of players across the league who are cut during and immediately after pre-season camp. They bring down the average career even more.

There's quite a few who fit the above mentioned scenarios in the NFL. And most other sports. These aren't "guys who play day in and day out and have careers worth mentioning." If you exclude players like that from overall averages, the "average player who actually plays day in and day out" has a career "far longer than the statistical averages."

Think about it.

your quoting an average career length for sports men, but you have absolutely no idea what that average is. All you've managed to say in two long posts, is sports men who don't retire early have a longer career than those who do. Well duh.

. Nb there are more sports in the world than the NFL, quite why you are obsessing about them I'm not sure. Very few people outside of America care tupence about the nfl