More No-Touch Knockouts.

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by arnisador
Mr. Dillman has a lot of good stuff, and I've learned a lot of things at his seminars. I've met Mr. Corn and watched him teach and he's a knowledgeable martial artist also.

Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.

The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it. Frankly, most of it is not even pressure point stuff as much as grappling techniques hidden in the kata. Also, DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques.

There's good stuff in DKI, and it exposes people to some great ideas. That's why I think it's a shame about the no-touch KOs--they are keeping peopel from seeing the good in the DKI system.

I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff.

yes but that apparently is the problem with all this- people like Dillman who do have good material to offer as he did in the beginning suddenly slide off the deep end, completely obscuring the good work they started with.

simply look at DKI Girl who claims to be rather new at all of this- she obviously should be less concern with no touch and more concern with practicing her basics and learning to defend herself in real and practical ways. Instead she attempts to examine this material which even she admits her teachers don't cite much practical use for.

this is a waste of time and serves simply to impress and awe the already converted-- it hints of cult-like behavior and who knows where that can lead too.

peace.
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

whitebelt: Dude, I know that you were kidding (or at least I was hoping you were kidding!)

rmcrobertson: Hey, I am in total agreement with you about not trying everything. If I am going to really try something, I weigh out whether it would be harmful for me to try it or not. In Martial Arts, I would try almost anything, for I think that the "majority" of martial arts is O.K. to try (at least for me) as long as it is looked at in the light of logic. Read Arnisadors post though; that's what I'm talking about. Although it seems logical to believe that NTKO is crap, DKI people have been credible sources for other things. This is what would make me want to at least hear them out and see for myself, even if I am totally skeptical (which I am).

I respect your decision, however, to not want to try them out.

 

[Cruentus]

this is a waste of time and serves simply to impress and awe the already converted-- it hints of cult-like behavior and who knows where that can lead too.

Good points, and they may be true. For the sake of DKI, I hope that this isn't the truth.

 

[rmcrobertson]

To jazkiljok:

Well, I dunno. I looked up the quote you mentioned, and it's certainly there. It seems rather different to me--he doesn't claim to be teaching these KOs, certainly not in any quick fashion; the description involves moving on this guy quite physically at first--but then, it would. I will only add two things: a) the story appears in a context that certainly emphasizes the physical/psychological aspects of martial arts training--nothing too mystic there; b) as a teacher, I've never heard him try to put anything resembling this mysterious stuff across to students. He'll certainly discuss ki--but virtually all of that discussion revolves around stance-work, proper alignment, breathing, etc.

I can mention two things: once, for sure, he hit me with something truly weird. Not physical; can't really explain, and I'll skip the description of what it felt like. That was about two-three years ago, and I'm still skeptical and impressed. Why am I skeptical? Well, I've been training there going on ten years (yikes!), and beyond everything else, I just plain like the guy. So, while I could note that Mr. Tatum relaxed is a different thing altogether from Mr. Tatum feeling it's time to lay down some smackage on the likes of me--from time to time, you know, it's like mopping the floor. Just gotta wake the kids up, as well as the drifting intellectuals. And while I tend to associate this with something that isn't altogether physical or psychological--I recognize it as an aspect of transference, and I also tend to think that this is perfectly explicable.

Believe me, I'd be outta there if I smelled cult. Of course, it is interesting that anybody who trains martial arts exhibits a lot of cultish behavior...

And you know, even if there were something mysterious going on--and I believe my first post on this said as much--I'd only find it somewhat impressive. I'm a hell of a lot more impressed by Mr. Tatum's teaching ability, to tell you the truth--and I think that's a lot more important, and a lot more mysterious, than these silly no-touch knockouts.

So I don't know. I don't necessarily think that the projection of ki is impossible; I'm skeptical anyway--and I'm damn sure skeptical about anybody who claims to be teaching this stuff in under about forty years.

I have to say, too, that the stuff I've seen in clips is just plain silly-looking.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying.

Yes I agree since he got 99.99% of the “good stuff” from the 6 seminars he went to given by my teacher or from the 12 video tapes on kata and bunkai he bought from our Association which are "chocker block" full of techniques. Before all of that Dillamn had no idea what bunkai, tuite, or even kyusho was as he himself stated in a 1984 Official Karate Article.
(Yilisifu was actually present during that interview)
Although given the way he learned,…… more than a few of his techniques have some major flaws………..footwork for example………or should I say the lack there of.

Originally posted by arnisador
But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.

Again, I agree. He has gone beyond “pushing the envelope” with that stuff.
It’s horse pucky plain and simple.
For the “believers” it’s a new opiate. (something to get high on)

Originally posted by arnisador
The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it.

I am VERY familiar with “Georgie” and his bag of tricks and the things he has point blankly Bsed about.

Originally posted by arnisador
DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques.

Again, another training concept he “borrowed” from my teacher. (see 1984 Official Karate Article) Basically the stuff that works “Georgie” swiped from other people………the hocus-pocus stuff is all “Georgie’s”.

Originally posted by arnisador
I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff.

Quite frankly I would not.
For a couple of reasons.

1) As I have stated before his technique has a lot of “holes” in it.
2) The man has fabricated much of his Martial Resume.

 

[chufeng]

Originally posted by arnisador
Mr. Dillman has a lot of good stuff, and I've learned a lot of things at his seminars. I've met Mr. Corn and watched him teach and he's a knowledgeable martial artist also.

Mr. Dillman has a lot to offer, and I have often left his seminars saying "I should have thought of that!" about some joint-locking application of a kata. I believe he believes what he's saying. But I believe the no-touch KOs are stage magic, the theory of sound is wishful thinking (you use a different kiai for strikes in different directions and to different organ systems), and the color theory--if he's wearing a red shirt, hit to a heart point, etc.--is nonsense.

The DKI system is taking a hard knocking here from people who may not be directly familiar with it. Frankly, most of it is not even pressure point stuff as much as grappling techniques hidden in the kata. Also, DKI isn't a single Karate system--it is an approach that fits in with many Karate systems. Many DKI people are principally doing, say, Isshin-ryu and adding to it some grappling and pressure point techniques.

There's good stuff in DKI, and it exposes people to some great ideas. That's why I think it's a shame about the no-touch KOs--they are keeping peopel from seeing the good in the DKI system.

I'd still encourage karateka to investigate DKI. I'd go to more DKI seminars if there was more fighting technique and less "experimental" chi stuff.

You know, I had an experience (well, actually several) where someone said or did ONE thing that opened my eyes to MANY more possibilities within my art...and I explored those new areas and grew...It is kind of the analogy I use very frequently about an onion...you peel one layer and there is another that looks like the last one, until you peel it and there's another one...and so on.

I think George Dillman had an epiphany when he met Oyata Sensei...he SAW many possibilities in his (Dillman's) art and explored them...and FOUND a lot of new stuff...BUT...the complaint that many have with George is the fabricated "autobiography" that he keeps advertising...

I've not met Mr. Dillman, but I know he certainly could have had a very profound awakening to the hidden aspects of his art...

Why would anyone, then, choose to CREATE a myth about its birth? Simply put...money...just like the TaeKwonDo myth of being an ANCIENT art...the myth that is advertised SELLS memberships better than the truth...

One of the things I vowed NOT to do, when I ventured onto my martial path, was to sell out...money won't buy your way into my system...if you want to sweat and work hard, you are welcome...
and if there is a small fee attached, it goes to pay for operating expenses...

Now, I don't begrudge anyone who wants to capitalize on their abilities...but to make false claims to make a buck...forgetaboudit.

IMHO

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

It may or may not be true that it has a lot of holes in it; I don't know. In my experience one there isn't much else like it that is easily available in the States. He and his people are the source for nontrivial interpretations of the kata. Seeing actual bunkai made me realize what bunk I'd been swallowing as a karate student. I give Mr. Dillman much credit for that.

I have been hit at his seminars in ways that caused me discomfort in an unusual way. He and his people are indeed doing something different. Mr. Dillman has not tried to knock me out--last time he was about to do so but was called away--and his students have failed the handful of times they have tried. In fairness, I have a high pain threshold for these sorts of things. I certainly believe that a great many of the contact KOs I've seen are legitimate KOs, and a physician seated net to me at one demo. agreed.

 

[arnisador]

I don't know the truth about his resume. I'm simply not in a position to judge. I got good quality info. from him for years. Now, the quality is much more uneven.

I do know that there is a longstanding disagreement between him and his teacher(s), and I don't doubt what you say. I understand that there are people who are upset about the matter. But to me, I am only interested in what I can learn from him and his people. There's still a lot I could learn from them, if they'd teach it. Instead, it's mostly no-touch KOs, chi balls, and moving people with chi, it seems.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
In my experience one there isn't much else like it that is easily available in the States.

There is plenty.
We have dojo all over the world. My teacher is gone most weekends giving seminars somewhere in the US or abroad.

Originally posted by arnisador
He and his people are the source for nontrivial interpretations of the kata.

Actually they aren’t.

Originally posted by arnisador
Seeing actual bunkai made me realize what bunk I'd been swallowing as a karate student. I give Mr. Dillman much credit for that.

I will give him credit for being a master at marketing but that is about it.
There are guys in our association that blow “Georgie” out of the water when it comes to skill level…..they have studied with my teacher for 3 or more DECADES…….“Georgie” went to 6 seminars.

Originally posted by arnisador
I have been hit at his seminars in ways that caused me discomfort in an unusual way. He and his people are indeed doing something different. Mr. Dillman has not tried to knock me out--last time he was about to do so but was called away--and his students have failed the handful of times they have tried. In fairness, I have a high pain threshold for these sorts of things.

See……..that’s just it. Pain has nothing to do with it.
When my teacher does that people wake up on the floor and say that felt very little or nothing. Good technique doesn’t need a lot of power to be effective…….in many cases it is counter productive.

In fact there is a home video of "Georgie" getting KO for the first time by my teacher..........."Georgie" woke up on the floor and said nobody hit him.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Actually they aren’t.

You have in the past cited the fact that you're in Japan as a means of demonstrating that you're apt to know what's happening there. This is valid reasoning.

I'm in the States. I read the seminar announcements in the major martial arts mags., at E-Budo, and at my local martial arts store, and my instructor e-mails me ones of interest. I also check a number of web sites that I know often list seminars. In the U.S., seminars of this sort are overwhelmingly done by DKI instructors. (I live in the same town as Rick Clark, another well-known kyusho person, and haven't been able to arrange a meeting with him yet. He really keeps to himself.) I have no doubt that there are other schools out there, but the DKI group is by far the most accessible.

I'm in Terre Haute, IN. What haven't I noticed yet about good instruction in kyusho/authentic bunkai?

 

[chufeng]

Arnisador,

I do think that G.Dillman may have many things to offer...
But I don't believe the "source" of those things as he relates it...
Also, I think George will say, or do anything, as long as the price is right...

That's all...

The next time an Oyata Sensei seminar is offered, GO...or a seminar by one of his senior students, GO...

...and even though Dillman may be able to "knockout" people, after meditating for three hours, and then preparing the individual, and then taking 30 seconds or so to knock someone out with the NTKO, HOW does that translate into self-defense, martial arts, or anything else?

It seems the best application of that skill is to slip into someone's wallet when he isn't looking....but it is NOT martial arts.

IMHO

...and I am NOT trying to take away from the GOOD things that you have learned, or those who study in his system...bottom line, the emperor is NOT wearing any clothes...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador
You have in the past cited the fact that you're in Japan as a means of demonstrating that you're apt to know what's happening there. This is valid reasoning.

You must be joking…..they do not…..I repeat they don’t teach this kind of stuff in Japanese dojo. Not in the JKA or the JKF either.
There are basically only 2 places where you can get good instruction in these arts.
1) Okinawa
2) The US

Originally posted by arnisador
I live in the same town as Rick Clark, another well-known kyusho person, and haven't been able to arrange a meeting with him yet. He really keeps to himself.)

I had one of Clark’s 4th dans visit me. He was a nice guy but his technique didn’t work. He was into the "color by numbers kyusho" as well.

Originally posted by arnisador
I'm in Terre Haute, IN. What haven't I noticed yet about good instruction in kyusho/authentic bunkai?

One of my students trained with Will Higembacken (sp?) in Terre Haute and said he is a good guy………and yes Will is a “Dillmanite”.
But some of the stuff my student learned from him looked decent.
You might want to check him out.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by chufeng

The next time an Oyata Sensei seminar is offered, GO...or a seminar by one of his senior students, GO...

His students don’t give seminars, mainly because we are not in it for the money.

Besides, it's better to learn from Mr. Oyata himself.

 

[chufeng]

RyuShiKan,

That's a good thing...

I plan on bringing out our teacher once a year for seminars...
We brought him out last October and already are planning for the next "visit" scheduled for this October...

Our admission fee just covers expenses...no one makes money...everyone learns.

I would never presume to offer to personally do a seminar in our system as long as my teacher were available to do it.

:asian:
chufeng

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
You must be joking…..they do not…..I repeat they don’t teach this kind of stuff in Japanese dojo.

No, that wasn't my point.

One of my students trained with Will Higembacken (sp?) in Terre Haute and said he is a good guy………and yes Will is a “Dillmanite”.

I know Will Higginbotham and have been to several seminars of his in Indianapolis. (He has not lived in Terre Haute for many years.) I have seen him perform no-touch KOs. He's a very nice person and I enjoy his events. he also does SCJJ and Modern Arnis.

But some of the stuff my student learned from him looked decent.
You might want to check him out.

He is a DKI instructor and I understood you to be recommending a different style not merely a different instructor within DKI.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by arnisador

He is a DKI instructor and I understood you to be recommending a different style not merely a different instructor within DKI.

I don't know about any of his no touch KOs, I guess that's a new thing.
However, I do give credit where credit is due....no matter who they study from.........the techniques he taught to my present student had merit.

 

[Mike Clarke]

This subject is all just too silly if you ask me.[I know,,,who's asking??].

I know Erle Montaigue and I know what he thinks about all this, and Mr. Dillman. He pretty much ripped his claims to bits in the Australian martial arts press some years back, and he used science as well as common sense to do it.

My offer is still on the table regarding all this.

Mr. Dillman's followers remind me of the people who believe in Sai Baba [another show man of mega proportions]. This guy reckons he can pull stuff out of the celestial void like dimonds and stuff [though mostly it's only ash, as that's all he can hide in his hand I reckon].

The couple of seminars I have of Mr. Dillman teaching [if you can call it that], show me a man more interested in his image and his lofty position in relation to the other people in the room, than a 'teacher'. His senior student on the tapes seems no better.

I have to wonder why anyone [outside the military's drill sgts] would talk to someone that way anyway. And why would anyone want to listen? Do you guys like to be talked down to in this way?

And as for leaving his seminars thinking,"Why didn't I think of that?" Let me know when anyone has found a way to remember every single possibility there is to any given attack. Of course people are going to discover things that you have not thought of before, but this does not mean they know 'more' than you do.

I've said enough I think.

Mike.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Mike Clarke
….The couple of seminars I have of Mr. Dillman teaching [if you can call it that], show me a man more interested in his image and his lofty position in relation to the other people in the room, than a 'teacher'. His senior student on the tapes seems no better.

I have to wonder why anyone [outside the military's drill sgts] would talk to someone that way anyway. And why would anyone want to listen? Do you guys like to be talked down to in this way?

Mike,

Some foreigners like that kind of atmosphere. I guess it makes them feel like their in “Asian Mode” or something.
Maybe you have seen them when you were Okinawa. I know I have seen them here in Japan and abroad.
You know, the students that every other word out of their gob is “Ous” and they bow and scrape before the “Master” for no reason at pretending to Samurai vassals kneeling before the all mighty Shogun or some such rot.
I see foreigners do it in some dojo here and it makes me sick for two reasons.
1) There is no need for the much bowing and scraping.
2) Some Japanese teachers I know eat that stuff up with a shovel

I guess if someone needs a good ego massage that is the best thing for them.
Personally I would rather see my students sweating their a$$es off from working out than licking my boots.

 

[yilisifu]

I will say it again.....Dillman learned his nerve-point and kata interpretation material from Master Seiyu Oyata who did NOT authorize him to teach it. I know because I was there (Mr. Oyata is a friend of mine). Dillman's "light strike" knockouts are NOT anywhere close to Mr. Oyata's level of skill. By comparison, they are quite crude and heavy.

Mr. Oyata never had anything to do with "no-touch knockouts" because no such thing exists, or ever has. It's right up there with moving people from ten feet away. The only reality to it is that it makes a lot of money from people who are fooled by these charaltans.

I have been involved in the study of martial arts for better than four decades and I have watched the martial arts scene change over the years. These "no-touch knockouts" and "empty force" exhibitions are some of the worst prostitutions of martial arts that I've ever witnessed.

Listen to those who have gone before you and pay attention.

 

[TkdWarrior]

well it's a kind a off topic but i'll post it

Originally posted by Mike Clarke


Mr. Dillman's followers remind me of the people who believe in Sai Baba [another show man of mega proportions]. This guy reckons he can pull stuff out of the celestial void like dimonds and stuff [though mostly it's only ash, as that's all he can hide in his hand I reckon].
Mike.

Mike there r 2 sai baba's lived in india in different time line the one u talked about is very much faked n arrested by police n taken into account for fraud some years ago... the real sai baba was lived around last century(18??-19??) dunno the real time...
but he's worshiped more like a good saint rather than any magician. the only MAGIC u can suppose was his healing powers. it was like he came for ppl n then died for them...
-TkdWarrior-