MORE Changes to Taeguek Poomse

[Miles]

This is why I chose to be part of the AAU rather than the WFT/KKW based organizations. The marketing and sport focus give TKD a bad name overall in the martial arts community. I find that it is getting harder and harder to defend TKD overall.

Where can people find any official news of these changes? I don't want to buy DVD just to see the forms changes. Is there an official site stating these changes?

Independent TKD, you can be an AAU member and still come under the KKW umbrella as sport is a part of TKD. But remember, the KKW exists to train instructors and develop the martial art of TKD. The WTF exists to promote the sport aspect.

As far as getting official news of changes-ideally, your instructor would keep in good standing with Kukkiwon and learn of any changes. As I mentioned, there really have not been many "official" changes in nearly 30 years, but unfortunately individual instructors have added/subtracted/intrepeted different things which have changed the poomsae.

The Kukkiwon's website is a great start if your instructor is not in touch with the KKW. As part of its mission, the KKW has put out several textbooks (the latest version was in 2006). The DVD series I mentioned is brand new and is KKW's recognition that we live in a digital world. It greatly upgrades the quality from the video series done in the 80s/90s.

Good luck with your training!

Miles

 

[MSUTKD]

You MUST get the new DVD's. They are even better than Dartfish.

 

[terryl965]

You MUST get the new DVD's. They are even better than Dartfish.

Master Southwick Welcome back and I was so please to see that you won a silver a couple of weeks ago cudos to your training in the poomsae. Does the new DVD have all the changes in them that are currently going on? Zachary says hello.

 

[zDom]

With all due respect, it sounds to me, Mr. Southwick, as if you are saying things were changed to match more closely how YOU have been doing things, therefore it is an improvement.

I remain unconvinced.

Maybe the reason the US does so poorly in poomsea competition is because those who train in Kwan-era style TKD aren't ready to abandon all deep stances and end up getting eliminated in the preliminary rounds.

I don't see TKD getting any better with these changes. I just see more and more forms "champions" who couldn't do a deep stance or a powerful block if their life depended on it.

 

[terryl965]

With all due respect, it sounds to me, Mr. Southwick, as if you are saying things were changed to match more closely how YOU have been doing things, therefore it is an improvement.

I remain unconvinced.

Maybe the reason the US does so poorly in poomsea competition is because those who train in Kwan-era style TKD aren't ready to abandon all deep stances and end up getting eliminated in the preliminary rounds.

I don't see TKD getting any better with these changes. I just see more and more forms "champions" who couldn't do a deep stance or a powerful block if their life depended on it.

zDoom I understand where you are coming from, but I can assure you Master Southwick is very talented and can do all the deep stances as well and has alot of power in his blocks. I know he was at my school last December and did some poomsae for us. I am one that does not like changes in the poomsae especially if it is toward the sport aspect, but I will hold judgement until I can see and compare the changes to the older ways. I hope it is for the beterment of TKD as a whole and just not for the sport.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I am one that does not like changes in the poomsae especially if it is toward the sport aspect, but I will hold judgement until I can see and compare the changes to the older ways. I hope it is for the beterment of TKD as a whole and just not for the sport.

I'll second that.

 

[MSUTKD]

Scott,

I do train in kwan-era TKD, always have, and always will. I am simply comforted by the cliché, “the more things change, the more they stay the same”. What is correct or improved? I do not think anyone knows the answer to that. I make no claims to be “right”, and since you have no knowledge of these “changes” then I hope you could just take me for my “opinion” on them. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just stating a fact. What my kwan-era teacher showed me is close to what they want. My teacher still calls it karate and he is a 72 year old Korean.

Deep stances do not a traditional martial art make. (Yoda pun) If you would do some research you would find many pictures of Funakoshi himself in what taekwondo calls a walking stance. Also look at his take on the forward stance. The absurdly deep front stance (not true if one is involved in CMA) is a modern invention, not a window to the past designed to give you super powers.

All of the top poomsae people have very powerful techniques; power is one of the top criteria for scoring. The stances, while not Power Ranger deep, have been given a particular limit or standard. They are really not as different as the rumors have lead many to believe.

This international standard is not necessarily for the Dojang. Never, has the WTF/Kukkiwon said you have to do it. This is America and we can laser print our rank certificates, induct ourselves into the hall of fame and start our own style – we do not need anyone’s permission. This is another avenue to express our dedication and skill in a world area.

 

[zDom]

Scott,

I do train in kwan-era TKD, always have, and always will. I am simply comforted by the cliché, “the more things change, the more they stay the same”. What is correct or improved? I do not think anyone knows the answer to that. I make no claims to be “right”, and since you have no knowledge of these “changes” then I hope you could just take me for my “opinion” on them. I am not trying to convince you of anything, just stating a fact. What my kwan-era teacher showed me is close to what they want. My teacher still calls it karate and he is a 72 year old Korean.

Deep stances do not a traditional martial art make. (Yoda pun) If you would do some research you would find many pictures of Funakoshi himself in what taekwondo calls a walking stance. Also look at his take on the forward stance. The absurdly deep front stance (not true if one is involved in CMA) is a modern invention, not a window to the past designed to give you super powers.

All of the top poomsae people have very powerful techniques; power is one of the top criteria for scoring. The stances, while not Power Ranger deep, have been given a particular limit or standard. They are really not as different as the rumors have lead many to believe.

This international standard is not necessarily for the Dojang. Never, has the WTF/Kukkiwon said you have to do it. This is America and we can laser print our rank certificates, induct ourselves into the hall of fame and start our own style – we do not need anyone’s permission. This is another avenue to express our dedication and skill in a world area.

Thank you for your response, Mr. Southwick.

If Terry speaks well of your ability, then I am satisfied with that endorsement.

And I AGREE that absurdly long stances are NOT "a window to the past designed to give you super powers," nor are a deep stance the be-all end end-all of traditional martial arts.

But I what I AM seeing is very little difference between a walking stance and a front stance; blocks powered only with arm motions instead of generated at the hips; and back stances that are simply a walking stance with the rear foot pointed perpendicular to the front foot and being told these are now the "official" stances and techniques — and all without any explanation on why these modifications would be any better than the way I was taught by my instructors.

Just to identify who that might be, my 2nd dan comes from the Ed Sell's U.S. Chung Do Kwan. His instructor's instructor, GM Uhm, Woon Kyu, had a hand in making the Taegueks!

GM Lee, Won Kuk, was at my first dan test and also instructed during the Moo Sul Kwan seminar held that weekend. Even at his advanced age at the time, I could tell HIS front stance was deeper than what I am seeing from "forms champions" or "official videos."

Who ARE these guys? And what is their justification for changing the forms? What is their background, who were their instructors? I guess that is the information I am seeking.

I've said this before and I will repeat myself here: if these changes ARE endorsed by people like Uhm, then it will only make my decision to retire from taekwondo to pursue hapkido permanent, and it looks like if I ever DO come out of retirement to teach kicking-punching, I'll have to call it something else besides taekwondo. What that might be, I at this point just don't know.

If this is all contrary to your experience, perhaps I am simply confused and not seeing the same official changes that you are defending.

A front stance (different from a walking stance), as I understand it, should be twice shoulder width long, and shoulder width wide, for example. What I am seeing and hearing about in these new, official taekwondo forms is both too narrow and too short by the above description.

Are you seeing the same things I am?

 

[Kacey]

But I what I AM seeing is very little difference between a walking stance and a front stance; blocks powered only with arm motions instead of generated at the hips; and back stances that are simply a walking stance with the rear foot pointed perpendicular to the front foot and being told these are now the "official" stances and techniques — and all without any explanation on why these modifications would be any better than the way I was taught by my instructors.

Remember, as I say this, that I practice and teach Ch'ang H'on TKD, and have nothing to do with the Kukkiwon, WTF, etc. - I came from the ITF, although I am currently not affiliated with any organization other than YomChi... however, having said that, I agree - while some of the terminology is different (what you call a front stance, is, I believe, what I call a low stance, which is longer than a walking stance by one foot's length), and yes, power comes from the hips... and yes, I teach this way - it's the way I was taught, and I agree with the principles behind it.

Like you, I don't modify anything without understanding the reasons behind the modification; luckily, my sahbum has the same opinion, and doesn't teach anything that has changed until he can explain why it was changed.

Change for the sake of change is bad; change to return to a higher standard - which is what it sounds like this is intended to be - is not, IMHO, a bad thing.

 

[Miles]

Thank you for your response, Mr. Southwick.

If Terry speaks well of your ability, then I am satisfied with that endorsement.

Yes, MSUTKD is one of the good guys.

If this is all contrary to your experience, perhaps I am simply confused and not seeing the same official changes that you are defending.

A front stance (different from a walking stance), as I understand it, should be twice shoulder width long, and shoulder width wide, for example. What I am seeing and hearing about in these new, official taekwondo forms is both too narrow and too short by the above description.

Are you seeing the same things I am?

That's why for me, this board is so important. This is a great way to get "the word out" so to speak. Let me help you through your confusion-that's my job.

Front stance is 1 1/2 strides long with front leg bent so that your knee is almost above your toes. Walking stance is 1 stride long-both knees are straight.

GM Sell's instructor, GM Park, Hae Man, teaches these stances in exactly the same way as I've described above.

MSUTKD mentioned Funakoshi, Gichin. If you look at the cover of "Karate Jutsu-The Original Teaching of Master Funakoshi" (ISBN 4-7700-2681-1 published by Kodansha), he is in exactly what the KKW says is a perfect front stance. His horse stance (juchum seogi) is also perfect and his back stance (dwi seogi) is also perfect. So you can see, these "changes" really are not new.

Good luck with your training!

Miles

 

[Kacey]

How long is a "stride"? I'm asking this seriously - we measure in shoulder-widths, with what we call a walking stance being 1 1/2 shoulder widths long (front foot big toe to back foot big toe), and 1 shoulder width wide (instep to instep), also with the front knee bent nearly over the ankle.

 

[Miles]

How long is a "stride"? I'm asking this seriously - we measure in shoulder-widths, with what we call a walking stance being 1 1/2 shoulder widths long (front foot big toe to back foot big toe), and 1 shoulder width wide (instep to instep), also with the front knee bent nearly over the ankle.

I know you are serious Kacey. A stride is your natural step, no more, no less. At Kukkiwon, it was stressed that Taekwondo is something you should be able to do for your entire life and is composed of many natural movements.

Miles

 

[Independent_TKD]

I've said this before and I will repeat myself here: if these changes ARE endorsed by people like Uhm, then it will only make my decision to retire from taekwondo to pursue hapkido permanent, and it looks like if I ever DO come out of retirement to teach kicking-punching, I'll have to call it something else besides taekwondo. What that might be, I at this point just don't know.

Actually this is a trend I have been seeing for a while. Many talented TKDers are leaving TKD to practice other arts. I know many people who keep up their TKD skills on their own but have move over too other arts. Here is what many say as to why they move on:

*Lack of rigorous dojangs
*Too many McDojangs with low standards
*Not enough adult student to practice with
*Too many TKD afterschool daycare programs hurt image
*Heavy focus on sport and choreographed movements

It's really sad because the people I know still really like TKD. For me, I still practice and teach TKD, but it is really starting to look like something other than TKD because I have addedd and remove many techniques. Also, it is hard to take the TKD forms seriously anymore because if they can be changed on a whim, then they obviously are not as essential as everyone always insists.

For a lot of people TKD has just become very commercialized and watered down. That's not to say everyone wants to spar full contact every night. It's that (in my area) the TKD schools sometimes only have three or four adult students. The rest are kids. This often drive more dedicated TKDers over to the Muay Thai (or similar striking arts) schools that take training more seriously. The problem is that it is close to impossible to find a tough TKD school. For every one, there are twenty McDojangs.

 

[MSUTKD]

The funny thing here is that the Kukkiwon/WTF did not really change the forms, we did. They are more like the 70’s era forms now. The “AmeriKwans” and independent schools added/subtracted/adjusted the forms because, until now there has been not “true” standard in the US; this is the first real attempt to do that. I think this could be good as it will force those “low-skilled” to step up. In the last 20 years forms have died in Korea, the focus was on sparring. The Kukkiwon and WTF are just now seeing (again) the importance of taekwondo for the masses, not just the “sport” component. They are trying to get adults involved in taekwondo, not just kids; in fact they study how we do things here.

Independent, you are so right about watered down TKD but I assure you many good TKD and martial arts programs exist out there. Many represent on this board, like Terry and Miles, whom I know personally.

 

[TKDmel]

I have been to other schools and observed classes where BB's did half-hearted kicks, sloppy blocks, etc. The instructor actually said that they have "dumbed it down" for students to make it easier for them. I think that redesigning the forms is simply a dumbing down of traditional TKD. The poomse as taught and stances as they have always been is a training technique that is invaluable in my opinion.

 

[TKDmel]

Actually this is a trend I have been seeing for a while. Many talented TKDers are leaving TKD to practice other arts. I know many people who keep up their TKD skills on their own but have move over too other arts. Here is what many say as to why they move on:

*Lack of rigorous dojangs
*Too many McDojangs with low standards
*Not enough adult student to practice with
*Too many TKD afterschool daycare programs hurt image
*Heavy focus on sport and choreographed movements

It's really sad because the people I know still really like TKD. For me, I still practice and teach TKD, but it is really starting to look like something other than TKD because I have addedd and remove many techniques. Also, it is hard to take the TKD forms seriously anymore because if they can be changed on a whim, then they obviously are not as essential as everyone always insists.

For a lot of people TKD has just become very commercialized and watered down. That's not to say everyone wants to spar full contact every night. It's that (in my area) the TKD schools sometimes only have three or four adult students. The rest are kids. This often drive more dedicated TKDers over to the Muay Thai (or similar striking arts) schools that take training more seriously. The problem is that it is close to impossible to find a tough TKD school. For every one, there are twenty McDojangs.

I teach both taguek and palgwe and in full stances. I will not water TKD down or "dumb it down" to make it easy for students. Nothing worth having comes easy.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

The poomse as taught and stances as they have always been is a training technique that is invaluable in my opinion.

I agree with you. Combat Magazine (GB) has printed the first of a serial of articles detailing the changes this month. Stances, apchagi and dollyo chagi this month. I will post details when I get the chance. So far so good, nothing too dramatic...

 

[exile]

I agree with you. Combat Magazine (GB) has printed the first of a serial of articles detailing the changes this month. Stances, apchagi and dollyo chagi this month. I will post details when I get the chance. So far so good, nothing too dramatic...

Please do, FD. Combat is one of the best MA publications in the world, I think, from the very few issues I've seen; I'm probably going to start a subscription to it. Anything you can post will be welcome.

(BTW, our guests from the West Coast have gone back, so now will be able to reply to your PM of several days back...)

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Thanks Exile, I'll look forward to it. I am a fan of combat, I also like Martial Arts Illustrated very much.

As Miles has said Apkubi (Front Stance) is 1 1/2 foot lengths long. To add clarity this is measured between the heel of the front foot and toes of the rear. So far so good! Toes of rear foot to point to one o'clock, approx 30 degrees. Weight distribution is 2/3rds on front foot. Out of interest it has been remarked upon in another thread that the stance is now narrower (although this is not noted in the magazine I've also heard this in conversation). So narrow in fact that people are falling over. This surely has to be a sparring related change?

Back stance seems to me unchanged.

Juchum Seogi (Horse riding stance) is, and I quote 'narrower than than is often taught with a distance of two foot lengths between the parallel feet. I find this interesting as I have always been taught both a narrow and a wide horse riding stance, for different applications. This needless to say, being the narrower.

Ap seogi (walking stance) is supposed to be the natural position having taken a step. New guidlines say one foot length, with the inner edges of the feet in line. Back foot allowed to point out to one o'clock. Legs should be straight. My only point on this is have you ever tried walking with straight legs? I also think this is unwise as makes knees very vulnerable.

Momtong Bakkat Makki (middle section outer forearm block) should finish with with fist level with shoulder and in line with centre of body (solar plexus). Apparently if fist finishes in line with shoulder it has gone to far. I strongly disagree with this last point.

I will refrain from commenting on the kicking commentary as I think it leaves too much to my interpretation of the pictures.

There doesnt seem to be too much to this, I remain very interested however in the changes to the poomse.

 

[Makalakumu]

This has been a very interesting discussion from an outside perspective. Not that TSD is THAT outside, but we are definitely down the evolutionary ladder from TKD.

Anyway, what I want to know is what the intent of the Taeguek forms was supposed to be in the first place. I suspect that they were originally designed the KMA masters thought would be good for self defense. Basically, they mimicked japanese karate without really understanding what those moves were really used for.

This is why the development of these forms is so interesting. There is no doubt about it, TKD is developing into more a sporting format. So, if these changes in the forms aid those goals, from a pedegogical perspective, then the forms are more closely matching the overall objectives.

Think about it. There is no use practicing low stances if you don't practice throws or joint locks A LOT. If 90% of your techniques are kicks that are supposed to be used in competition, then it would seem to me that the intent behind the form is finally matching the ultimate goal...

What do you think?