Modern Arnis Mania in FMA Digest

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally the politics just muddies the water for me. Makes me happy I have always stayed on the fringe. The pie is big enough if everyone will just cooperate and be on friendly terms. I like training with almost everyone I have met even if I am partial to a few specific people. Bottom line train with who you want and enjoy Modern Arnis.

It would be nice in the future to have a big get together and have all of the senior people teaching. Unfortunately, this is not going to happen anytime soon.

 

[Dieter]

If it is an open seminar, I would come and teach, no matter who else would be there as well.
I am open for it.

Who else?

The problem for this kind of seminar will be: who organizes it, meaning, who is neutral enough, to be accepted from any side as the host of such an event.
And also: if you bring in the heads of the most important Modern Arnis groups, there will be easy 10 people instructing ,
So one of the core questions would be: Are there enough interested participants, to finance such an event.
There will be a lot of costs to pay like traveling, overnight, food and instructor fees.

And of course there will always be some people, who will not come, when others come.
But these problems are rooted very deep in the American Modern Arnis history and I am not the person, who look through it.
(In Germany there are also one or two people, where I would not teach when they are there. So this is not an American problem).


Regards

Datu Dieter Knüttel

 

[The Game]

The problems here Datu, is that it's all about money and ego. Some will not attend because they are incapable of putting ego on the side and risk looking lesser than someone else. That's different than just not wanting to deal with someone who is less than honorable. There's a few of those in America too.

But a big "gathering of masters" I would support, if it was affordable and I could get the time off from work to do so.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Dr. Jerome Barber took exception to some of my words here, and posted his response on his list. As I feel I need to publicly respond I am posting that here, as well as have emailed it to him. What Jerome does is his business, what his associates/affiliates/students/partners/whatever do is theirs.

To me, this is a small example of what is wrong with Modern Arnis today. Some will agree, some will not, and some will twist and read into this. Do whatever.

The bridges are burned, the tracks torn up, the roads in shambles.
All that is left to do is poison the well and salt the ground.
Before you do, just remember that it's all connected.

I'm done.


===

Hello Jerome.

On 06-22-2008, Bob Hubbard, the owner and Founding Member
of the web forum martialtalk.com wrote the following comment
in a post "Re: Modern Arnis Mania in FMA Digest":

The other sad part of this is the small number of closed minded
and bitter people who are even now twisting words, filling in
blanks and cackling with glee over the whole thing in little
internet holes...maybe they should be the first ones to get
behind the family and put their own futures where they think
others should, y'know? Show up to a MARPPIO event, test for rank
and accept what they get, and not make excuses about how it
doesn't apply to them, they are independant, and that Remy
signed off on them back when Ford was still President, and all
that stuff. Naw, that'll never happen.

Since I am one of those people that he's alluding to in his post,
I will make my own comment in rebuttal. In virtually any other case I
would make my rebuttal statement in the same venue where the original
statement was posted, however that option is not available to me. Mr.
Hubbard has banned me from his forum because I refuse to toe the wmaa
"party line".

You were banned for not being able to get past making everything about Hartman. The history and continual return to that dead horse subject on your own lists shows it was the right choic.

First and foremost, Mr. Hubbard finds it impossible to understand the
concept of or believe in independence. He is a follower, a true
believer type who wants and desperately needs a leader. Therefore
anyone who is willing and able to stand apart from the group is viewed
by Mr. Hubbard, with a great deal of suspiciousness and fear.

Your definition of "independent" means "anti-Hartman". You are incapable of understanding truth in that matter.

I separated myself from Professor Remy Presas and the IMAF in 1994.
ALL of my students were given the options of following my lead, staying
with the IMAF or working primarily with me and still testing for rank
with Professor. Each of my students at that time did what they believed
was in their best interests. Subsequently 5 students chose to attend
seminars and camps with Professor and they tested as well; however they
did not leave my program. We are all still friends and we work together
from time to time on projects. That is an example of independence.

Yet the same concept is not extended to those who are even remotely connected to Tim Hartman.

My rank in Modern Arnis is frozen at Lakan Tatlo or 3rd degree Black
belt. That is not a problem for me and I have declined any and all
opportunities to join any other IMAF related modern arnis group since
the death of Professor Presas. I will always be a 3rd degree black-belt
under the late Professor. What others do or have done in terms of
joining groups since the death of Professor is not my concern.

Then why the continued focusing on such things?

I've not taken any joy from the FMA Digest articles. I'm not surprised
by the content and claims, but there is no need for me or my associates
to be "...cackling with glee over the whole thing in little internet
holes...". There is nothing to be gained or lost for me and my
associates by the growing disruptions and disputes within the modern
arnis ranks. I believe that the family has every right to pursue their
claims to the art and the monetary profits that might be derived from
their efforts.

I and others disagree, as the archives of your own list will verify that some in that "little internet hole" do take satisfaction and happiness over the sad state of affairs.
You and I agree on 1 point here. They do have the right to pursue their claims and profit from their efforts.
The emphasis here, is on "Their" efforts.

When referring to "...small minded and bitter people..." I strongly
suggest that Mr. Hubbard look closely in his own bathroom mirror, first
and then at his closest friends in the wmaa.

Considering what I've accomplished in the last decade, and what I still have to do, I doubt that any intelligent individual will deem my mind small.
Considering the numerous independent FMA people and non-arnis organizations the WMAA has brought into their events these past 8 or so years, I doubt they can be seen as small minded too.

I NEVER denied Mr. Hubbard an opportunity to participate on the old EA
forum, when his name came up in several posts. He requested membership
and it was granted in spite of the fact that he emphatically denied me
the opportunity to re-join his forum when my name was being raised
there.

I joined to refute points, and left when I felt I was wasting my time.
You aren't wanted back on MartialTalk, and even if I did want you there, it's not policy to restore access to banned members.

I NEVER censored his comments or threatened him with suspension when he
went on his rants against some the ideas that I support. Nor did I
suspend or ban Mr. Hubbard from the EA List. He withdrew on his own,
after he decided to back away from a challenge that he threw down and
had accepted by one of our subscribers. In short, Mr. Hubbard "lost
face" and since he did not control the admin switches on the EA List, he
couldn't "punish" people for calling his bluff, so he withdrew.

I left as the "minds" on your list are closed, and continued engagement was a waste of my time. There are better things to do in life than argue on the internet.
As to the challenge, I "backed down" after advice from my lawyer and doctors that participating in such things would not be in my best interests.

Mr. Hubbard has taken in the wmaa propaganda, hook, line and sinker.
He has never questioned a single position or claim made by the leader of
the wmaa - his friend. He has NEVER worked out with anyone outside of
the wmaa. His world consists of the wmaa version every position taken
without a critical analysis or testing. That is small mindedness. Mr.
Hubbard is quite bitter and unhappy with me because I refuse to deify
his good friend and wmaa leader. Mr. Hubbard rejects the idea that I do
not want to be a "world renowned" martial arts leader. He keeps
insisting that I have to be judged by a set of standards that puts into
play.

I've questioned Tim repeatedly in the past, and will continue to do so in the future.
I exercise no control over his organization, nor he on mine.
You don't know who I've trained with, or when, or why, so claiming I've never trained or worked out with anyone outside the WMAA is nonsense, and you know it. I remember quite clearly several short instructionals you yourself passed along when we were on better terms and enjoying those afternoon coffee chats. I've worked (abet briefly) with Huk Planas, Ed Planas, Sean Kelly, Frank Trejo, and at least a dozen other non-WMAA instructors, not to mention being on the floor at numerous events and partnering with various attendees.

The WMAA position is not my position, though they do sometimes overlap and are often close, there are also times they do not do either.
Their position is to ignore you. I was advised to avoid you. I met with you. Repeatedly.
That alone disproves the absoluteness of your statements.
That I choose to not follow your wishes, to not join the "not-wmaa" crowd, bothers you.
Not my problem.

My training or not training is my concern, no one elses.

I have my own standards and goals. I believe in smallness, compactness
and quality instruction. My goal was never to be the big man in the
arts. I wanted to teach a small number of students at a time, give them
a lot of one on one and two on one instruction.
I believe that the 14 people that I've trained to black belt level
is quite reasonable. That number suits me just fine. More importantly
to me, is the fact that 12 of the 14 people are working independent of
me and teaching on their own. The other 2 have chosen to work very
closely with me in help to prepare the next generation of students.

I've never to my recollection said your goals were bad. You are too defensive of what you have done.

Mr. Hubbard is bitter because he understands that I support and
highlight my former students and training partners. BTW the word
"training partners" is one that a number of wmaa people have trouble
understanding. I've explained on several occasions that a training
partner is someone who works with me and shares information with me and
others as an equal or peer. It doesn't matter to me if they were once a
student of mine. They are now black belt holders, they have trained
with other instructors and in other arts.
They have information and ideas that they want to share with their
peers, including myself. I am not the top banana in these training
sessions, I'm just one of the guys and the top guy at any given moment
is the one who's teaching!

I am not bitter, could care less who you support, highlight, etc.
I'm bitter because you never bought that damn danish you promised to buy me.

It is truly a very sorry state of affairs when Mr. Hubbard and his
cohorts can not see the true differences between my program goals and
those of the wmaa. It is truly a very sorry state of affairs when Mr.
Hubbard and his cohorts have to resort to name calling and character
attacks because they lack sufficient information to accurately criticize
my program and associates on our merits, comments and behaviors.

I like that. "Mr. Hubbard and his cohorts"

There really isn't any reason for me to go test for anyone. The awards
and recognitions that I have earned over the course of my career are
more than enough to justify my chosen path as an independent operator.
Anyone wishing to test before Marppio or any other organization is free
to do so as far as I am concerned. I choose not to go down that road.
My awards and recognitions from the late Professor, GM Al Tracy, PG Tom
Bolden, The Grand Masters Board of Kenpo International and the Sokeship
Council are not going to be superseded by testing with Marppio, IMAF,
IMAFP or any other group.

I don't think anyone really expects you or yours to do any testing under any other organization, especially MARPPIO.
After all, you have much more to lose by trying and failing, than you do by refusing to try.

Mr. Hubbard will continue to rant, rave and pontificate, but in the end
nothing will change because after all is said and done, Mr. Hubbard is
still minimally skilled in arnis and incapable of meeting the very
standards that claims other have failed to achieve.

I've heard the same said about you from numerous sources, over time. And, no, that's not from the "WMAA" either.

Now that I have said what I’ve said, I’m done with the entire thing.

You've said that at least a dozen times before. You'll say it a dozen times again.
I, and others, will believe it when your continued commentary on all things Hartman related cease.
But, your list really has no traffic when you do so does it?
That, says everything needed.


Talk about me all you want. I'm glad that my words have touched you, and that I'm in your thoughts these days.
I walked away from a pointless fight a year ago. Others have stood in an empty ring, and continued to throw punches, and sling jabs.
Has any of that made the world a better place? Has it improved the arts any?
At least, made ya'll feel better about yourselves?
I hope so. I hope that by focusing so much attention, and ire and anger and self hate outwards and projecting it on others that it has at least somehow made you feel better about yourselves.

I've nothing to prove, nothing to feel ashamed of, guilty of, or bad about.
My life, my accomplishments, my path is out there, plain to see.
So, use me as the target, the scapegoat or focal point all you want.
It changes nothing, and really doesn't effect me or mine at all.

Good day Jerome.

Sincerely,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Founder & Principal Instructor,
Paradigm Self Defense Arts Group

Bob Hubbard
MartialTalk.com Administrator
----
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[Bob Hubbard]

If it is an open seminar, I would come and teach, no matter who else would be there as well.
I am open for it.

Who else?

The problem for this kind of seminar will be: who organizes it, meaning, who is neutral enough, to be accepted from any side as the host of such an event.
And also: if you bring in the heads of the most important Modern Arnis groups, there will be easy 10 people instructing ,
So one of the core questions would be: Are there enough interested participants, to finance such an event.
There will be a lot of costs to pay like traveling, overnight, food and instructor fees.

And of course there will always be some people, who will not come, when others come.
But these problems are rooted very deep in the American Modern Arnis history and I am not the person, who look through it.
(In Germany there are also one or two people, where I would not teach when they are there. So this is not an American problem).


Regards

Datu Dieter Knüttel

I'm not able to train right now, however such an event would have what support I could give it.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Gentlemen and Bob-

I think that it’s best to ignore Barber and his group. All of this here on MT is just validating their existence, which is what they want. They have been cyber stalking / harassing me for nearly two decades. If internet laws continue going the way they are some of the members of his group may find themselves in sticky predicaments. Barber repeatedly “challenges” me and the members of my org to “Teach Offs” to prove who is better. If I were to agree to participate we all know that the victor would be picked before the event began. Of course this isn’t what they want. They want to be able to say I’m hiding from them. This is why he doesn’t call me on the phone to discuss things. He wants it out in the open for all to see; unless he is beginning to look bad then he wants to talk it off line.

If he wanted this “Teach Off” to happen, the first thing he would have to do is to stop insisting that we host it and host it himself. I never got that part “I challenge you to a teach off, but you have to host it”. Did I miss something or is that screwy? The other thing he would have to do is make it worth our while. In my case I have put a lot of time effort and money to get where I am today. If he wants me to teach at an event then he should do what everyone else does. Pay me for my time. I have taught at several events that he hosted and I have never been paid for my time. With his symposium he had people come as have as Germany to teach and didn’t offer to even buy a meal for the instructors.

Like I said before, ignore them and worry about what you are doing. Remy once told me “Tim, the better you do the louder the dogs will bark”. If that’s truth I must be doing alright!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

They are not on this board so let's get back to the origional topic of the interview.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

They are not on this board so let's get back to the origional topic of the interview.

Like I said, it's best to ignore them. As far as the article goes, there's not much to say. Either you support their position that ALL Rank promotions MUST go through the remaining member of the Presas family or you don't. I for one won't be supporting them. As I said before, if Remy wanted his kids to take over they would have been included in that part of the will.

 

[bobquinn]

I hear you Datu Hartman.


Bob Quinn

 

[The Last Legionary]

Looks like rank is part of another major split.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65161