Mod. Note--"I quit!" thread.

[chufeng]

Theneuhauser,

I'll buy all of that...
as I said, I may have been wrong...but my intentions were to help NOT criticize or alienate...

I read your message and many others regarding this particular thread...and perhaps you are more on line with what this kid needs...(and YES I am an a$$hole...something I've worked hard at)...

I just get tired of all of the "victims" in this country...
No one wants to be accountable for their own actions...
No one wants to be accountable for their own life situation...
Someone else is ALWAYS at fault...

To that I say BS..."get up off your dead a$$ and do something about it." God gave each of us the capacity to be great...WE choose to exercise that capacity, or not.

Thanks for your insight...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Michael Billings]

As Mr. Parker would say "Keep de faith brudda". Sigung LaBounty told me "You can always leave the Art, but the Art will never leave you."

Step away if you need to, you find jerks in every profession. Martial Arts is not excluded from this unfortunatly. The antipathy of your instructor is deplorable. It is unfortunate his school has flourished. The number of students through the doors is astounding, and look at the changes you made in your life, because of him? or despite him? Either way, he held a mirror up to you by his own responses and actions, and you did not like what you saw. Just make sure you pass what you learned on to others in your teaching.

I am sure you will be back to Kenpo, you have made it so much a part of your life that over the years, no matter what else you study, it will be in the context of your 'Mother Art' - Kenpo. Hopefully you will come back to add your interpretations and lessons on to others. Find a teacher, get a Black Belt. Anyone who says it doesn't matter is either fooling themselves, or truely mature in the best sense of the word. Of course it matters, we work so hard for it, it should matter. The disappointment you feel should not sour you on finding a teacher your respect. Now that you know what to look for, and what you need ... go get it.

I deal with the Dark Side for a living. Before I entered my current profession, I was a psychotherapist ... but not one you would be able to easily identify. I rode a Harley before the doctors and dentists and computer moguls decided it was cool. I worked with the worst of the worst, abused kids, sex offenders, assaultive men, parole and probationers ... not to mention the occassional cop. I know what tough love is.

Chufeng,
Challenging someone paradoxically can be appropriate, but not when you do not have a relationship with them. The Zen master with the stick does not apply in this case. The student / teacher relationship was not there. Sure KenpoScum is tough enough to take any comments any of us could make - that does not mean we should make those comments.

I know Doug Hall personally. He is not a bad guy. All that boy scout stuff is really who he is. You must have touched a serious nerve, maybe issues he or his family or friends have had to deal with. Maybe he was responding Dad-Like protecting someone he saw as having a hard time right now. He called em like he saw em. Although I think a private email would have put yall in the same ballpark, he responded on a serious level to what he thought of as abuse.

Talk about it guys and email someone before you assume the worst and attack. Moderators - good job!!! I hope you did not suspend either of these guys?

-Michael
UKS-Texas

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Hey there, Dougie, why the wild hair up your backside? :angry:

:angry:

I wondered why I didn't get any notices that there was a reply to this post.
Apparently we are not autosubscribed to threads we post to. I am not sure. I thought it used to work this way.

At any rate, I just checked this thread and I see there have been comments after me. I will have to read it and I'll post some type of civil response that falls within the rules.

However, if you check my 400 odd posts you can see that I am not one of those keyboard warriors I was generalizing about. It looked to me like Chufeng went out of his way to kick someone who was down. Mr. Billings did hit on something though, as I mentioned, I did drag a lower belt before our Head Instructor for something much less serious than this recently so maybe I was edgy. I know things can be misconstrued over the web, but obviously I was not the only one who took offense and it looks like at least one person contacted the Mods about this at some point.

As far as all that Christian stuff, if you guys see me do something offensive like this again, then I would hope you would jump on me the same way. I file that under "do unto others" so I expected someone to come at me somehow.

I'll go back and see what else was asked of me and make another reply later. But if you look around there have been a few people suspended lately and I was in a thread somewhere earlier where Clyde used that "keyboard warrior" stuff on someone and I thought it was good that he called it like he saw it. I admit a private message would have been effective, but I didn't want to be "sneaky" I wanted you guys to see what I thought because I was sure I was not alone and even if I make a mistake, I prefer to do it in public where there are witnesses and multiple points of view available.

Yes, I also stopped some scouts from hazing each other at our last meeting. There was a lot going on, they didn't listen to me, later several parents got involved when they started choking each other. So I think it is best to A) Discourage this type of behaviour, and B) Err on the side of preventing it from happening again.

Ironically I think Yilliquan posted as I was posting so when I saw my post go up I learned that Chefung was a teacher... and he probably has more experience than me and could probably kick my butt. That was a bit frightening, but again I hope I would speak up if I saw this in person. I think we should all act on the web the way we would act to each other if Kaith had invited us into his house (not much of a stretch in my opinion). I think a lot of people post on the web with the idea that they can say what they want with impunity.

I don't think I have ever seen a teacher come down on someone like this in person so I still don't think I'm out of line, but again, I'll go see what happened and reply to it being mindful not to throw any gas on a fire. I'm glad Yiliquan1 called me out.

As to Chefung, we are going to disagree on this because clearly Kenposcum was working hard (if we take him at his word, and we have to) and did not bring this on himself and did not deserve it... so like a prosecutor who blames a rape victim for the way she dresses or how she walks to her car alone, I again feel that he had no justification on picking on this guy who clearly being abused.

Again, I admit that Chefung and I are diametrically opposed in our view of what happened to Kenposcum and later with our mutual exchanges, so that being the case I will go now and see if I need to reply to anyone else. Thanks to everyone like Yiliquan1 and Mr. Billings who spoke up both against me and for me. I have reread the forum rules and I will be more careful to consider them in the future. While I don't think the tone of this thread is "ideal" I certainly think that there has been a good exchange of useful information and that is what I think this board should be for.
:asian:

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

Theneuhauser,

I'll buy all of that......

:asian:
chufeng

To theneuhauser,
I agree with chufen that you make good points.
I think I covered everything previously in my post.
I do want to say that i was not "hunting" chufeng prior to this and that I had been attracted some posts on the art Yilliquan (I think, is this the art someone joined because they had to study other systems?) and that I think I remember generally liking what these guys had to say. But this post really struck me as something that one veritable stranger would not say to another and I wanted my thoughts on that to be clear even. That is really about it. Maybe that is what I should have posted instead. There was perhaps a technical issue to why I posted as I did, but I don't want to start making excuses for myself. I'll try to be a bit more restrained in the future. I think both sides of this have been pretty well explored though so I'll shut up and be sure to subscribe to this thread. :asian:

 

[chufeng]

Mr. Billings,

Point taken...

Kenpo**** is not my student...

You see, I always see myself as a student and a teacher...perhaps others see themselves as only students of So & So...I see myself as everyone's student...

So, I'm learning more about HOW things get misconstrued on this medium...thanks for your comments.

CD Hall...no worries...if we met face to face tomorrow...I would NOT be upset with you...you clearly have Strong feelings about the way I responded...and, as I said, I may have been wrong...
but my intent was to motivate the young man to assume responsibility for his situation...

Victim mentality is WRONG...yes, some people ARE victims...but there seem to be a disproportionate number of victims and scapegoats in the world..."what are stumbling blocks for most, are stepping stones for some..." I would like to see more stepping stones and less stumbling blocks...that comes with a change in attitude and focus...accepting ownership for one's own circumstances (or at least ownership for HOW one deals with the circumstances one finds himself in).

good day...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Mod/Admin Note:

We're glad that our members have resolved this issue amicably. It's important to remember how easily posts can be misconstrued in a medium such as this, where there are no verbal or body language cues.

On that same note, we will be cracking down more on those who fire off personal attacks. If you feel the need to 'rip someone a new one', either take it to PM, send it by email or better yet, take a few hours and cool off. Use the 'report' feature. We will look into it ASAP and take what action we see as appropriate.

We locked this thread to give everyone some time to cool off. Alot of good has come out of this thread, most importantly that folks cooled off and returned things to the mature level.

Thank you,

MartialTalk Moderation and Administration team.

 

[cdhall]

Originally posted by chufeng

...
CD Hall...no worries...if we met face to face tomorrow...I would NOT be upset with you...you clearly have Strong feelings about the way I responded...and, as I said, I may have been wrong...
but my intent was to motivate the young man to assume responsibility for his situation...
good day...

:asian:
chufeng

Thanks Kaith. I agree. I think this turned out amicably as you say.

Chufeng I also agree with a lot of what you say here. I'm glad I won't have worry about meeting up with you sometime. Even though I've been invited to the State Championships, I have to assume that could give me a hard time if you wanted to. I was not trying to go out of my way to be disrespectful, I wanted to respond "in kind" to what I perceived was going on.

I also agree with a good deal of what you have generally stated about victims and such. I do think Kenposcum was taking ownership of his situation and I think he was fishing here for his next move as theneuhauser pointed out.

I will look forward to the Mod crackdown even if I get cracked later on, but I will take steps to avoid it. As far as the Christianity stuff that RyuShiKan noticed. I took this like Jesus took the moneychanging in the temple episode in Matthew 21:11-13. Like it says on my website, I'm new at this Christianity stuff, this may not be an exact parallel, but it is how I was struck.

As far as being a Cub Scout Leader, that must be on my resume. My son has moved to Boy Scouts now so I will update that line. Thanks for the reminder.
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Remember that there are five members of the MartialTalk Administartion/Moderation Team, and we try to confer on issues such as this. We have five members not only due to the amount of work--which is not trivial--but also due to the need for a balanced consensus. This means that it may take time for us to all check our e-mail and discuss the matter because different people are online at different times. In this medium people often expect a near-instant response but it often takes us at least a full day to discuss things and reach a consensus on a path of action. Patience please! We're dedicated to keeping martialTalk friendly but also to being fair to our members.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[chufeng]

When I first started frequenting the internet (circa 1988) it was much more difficult to navigate...it was also MORE heavily censored.

Postings to WebBoards like this were screened BEFORE the post...it did not allow for a free flow of ideas...it did not allow for arguments to work themselves out...

That is why I enjoy this board...the moderators step in when necessary, but most of the chat is real time...and free exchange of ideas IS encouraged...

A big Thank You to the moderators, from me...

chufeng

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by chufeng

A big Thank You to the moderators, from me...

Thanks to all who have recently expressed this idea; it is a lot of work, even when no result is visible to our members (indeed, even when no action is taken), and in Mr. Hubbard's case running MartialTalk is also an expense. We appreciate your appreciation!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
-On behalf of the MartialTalk Moderation Team

 

[Shinzu]

i am sorry this has happend to you. a similar event happened to me many years go.

i was testing for my green belt. i thought i did rather well, but the judges didnt think so. they told me my technques "stunk" (not very professional for instructors and judges in my opinion). i failed.

instead they passed brown belts which in their words "should not have really passed". i was very hurt since i was of lower rank and there was much favortism.

i quit the MA for a couple of years, but eventually went back. im glad i did.

perhaps finding a better dojo and instructor is the answer for you. sometimes it is hard to see the light until you are almost ending your journey.... whatever you decide, i wish you the best of everythig.

 

[CoopersVee]

Kemposcum,

You are a remarkably selfish young man. Fortunately, you are a young man and those of us who are no longer young men can hardly condemn you for being what we, ourselves, once were. Nevertheless, I am deeply, deeply disappointed in your post.

I sat on your evaluation committee. I am the only "staff" blackbelt at Downers Grove that does not have a blackbelt in Kempo and, Kemposcum, you know exactly who I am. When I first learned of your post, I shook my head sadly and resolved to do nothing, but once I read your post, I felt that I had to respond. You allege incompetence where, in fact, there is tremendous skill. You allege apathy where, in fact, your development was a matter of great concern. You also allege a conspiracy to deprive you of your black belt.

You spent seven years in the dojo. Your fellow brown belt, Jim, had spent fourteen. No one at Downers Grove has come away with a blackbelt in under 10 years. Why do you feel so slighted, so singled-out for persecution in light of such facts? It is true that Sensei Andy has not made it easy to get a black belt. He didn't buy Downers Grove Karate to make money. He bought it to make martial artists.

Didn't you ever wonder about my position in the dojo? I don't have a blackbelt in Kempo, my blackbelts are in Jiu Jitsu and Tae Kwon Do. You could say that I trade a Jiu Jitsu class for dojo time, but in reality, I'm too much of a pain in Andy's neck for that. He could be teaching another class during my time. He wouldn't have to worry about insurance for me. In truth, I'm there for two reasons. First and foremost is my friendship with the blackbelts at Downers Grove. Second, I am an independent viewpoint for important decisions - like blackbelts. I don't know the system. I know a lot of it because I've been around since 1988, but I don't know all of it. While Andy and Terry and Harry and Mike look at individual techniques, while they EXPECT this or that move next in kata, I do not. I evaluate you from another perspective. I look at your speed, power and focus. I look to see what you are really accomplishing when you make a move. In short, I am there as part of a quality assurance program. I bring this up because, though you may think otherwise, you didn't have as good a test as Jim did. When you watch Jim do techniques, you can see the imaginary people his is striking. That is a level of mastery that you haven't reached yet. You are starting to touch on it, but you aren't there yet. Your ability to kick the crap out of people is not the only criterion you are being evaluated on. Your memorization of techniques is not the only criterion you are being evaluated on. Your physical condition is certainly not the only criterion you are being evaluated on. A man, like Jim, who has been away from the dojo for nearly 20 weeks while pursuing his career as a federal officer cannot be expected to be in the same physical condition as a person who is free to come to the dojo every day. As you should well know, people don't schedule their own black belt tests.

This letter is already going on too long but I must address one more thing. Your characterization of Jim as a "fat-assed cop" is one of the most hurtful things it has EVER been my misfortune to read. When I think of the number of things that Jim has done for you, the friendship he has extended to you, the times he has defended you in front of others, I cannot believe that you said that. This is a person that you have sweated and bled with, and yet you couldn't even show the simple grace to celebrate with him on the night he completed THE SAME GOAL YOU HAD SET FOR YOURSELF. Think about it! A child laments that he didn't get EVERYTHING on his Christmas List. A man shares in the joys of his friends. You should have smiled. You should have cheered the loudest. You should have let Jim point to you and say, "You're next." Instead, you stormed out of the dojo. Remember that "dan" also means adult.

You have a great degree of talent. I hope you realize it. I hope that one day, you look back on your time at Downers Grove Karate and see it for the good it did you. More than that, I hope you can see it for the friends you had there in spite of the fact that while you were there, you couldn't see them.

 

[J-kid]

Hnmmm i cant really say what you should do. Perhaps take some college classes get a good job and take up martial arts after that again.

 

[chufeng]

I had a student in Hawaii who was "asked" to leave the Army...
He trained in (and was ranked fairly high) HwaRangDo prior to our training together (trained with Echanis)...
He settled in Arizona...
I made a trip to visit him so he could test for his first sash...

He was unable to complete the prerequisites and then was unable to perform the first form in our system (stage fright???)...all of the rest of his test was flawless...

I failed him...

He, as an adult, said that he would have been VERY disappointed if I would have given him a "token" promotion...

I think the THAT says it all...

He was a "senior" in another system and failed our first test (not because he didn't have talent) because I wouldn't compromise on our system's standards...he RESPECTED that...

CoopersVee, thank you for your perspective on this unfortunate topic...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Michael Billings]

Although I have already commented on this post, I feel like another note is appropriate.

We only see what other's want us to see of themselves on a forum like this. It gives us a much better perspective in how to support and help others when we have thoughtful comment, by anyone. In this case CoopersVee is giving us another side of KenpoScum's story. Our perspective is always our own, and hopfully what was shared in KenpoScum's first post, was venting, and he has gotten some resolution by now ... one way or the other.

We were all young once, and sometimes more than once. I hope that we all remember how we have matured in the Art, but also personally through the relationships and discipline, not just the material we learn in our Journey.

I think the maturity level was obvious in KenpoScum's first post, and a lot of us sought to help him resolve this within himself. These are his issues ... ours are how we responded to him, good and bad!! Hopefully this was a mirror, once again he can hold up to himself and see what he needs to see. As it does for us!

CoopersVee, thanks for sharing the other side. I am sure that for people who were not there, like myself, it is difficult to "judge" what was "right" and "wrong", so we shouldn't. But rather look at how we responded to each other now.

Respectfully,
Oos,
-Michael
UKS-Texas:asian:

 

[GouRonin]

There is three sides to every story. His/his/the truth.

I suspect the two of them are a little full of **** in some way and the truth is in-between.

Kenposcum kinda sounds like a kid for sure CoopV but you sound like a know it all Dad with a cucumber in his ****. Jeez, pack you bags kids, we're going on a guilt trip! Weeeee!

 

[Bod]

The third side is your opinion then Gou?

It doesn't matter. As long as you insult both sides in a dispute it makes you sound even handed, and not like some prat with a huge wooden spoon, and a desperate desire to appear witty.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by GouRonin

There is three sides to every story. His/his/the truth.

I suspect the two of them are a little full of **** in some way and the truth is in-between.

Kenposcum kinda sounds like a kid for sure CoopV but you sound like a know it all Dad with a cucumber in his ****. Jeez, pack you bags kids, we're going on a guilt trip! Weeeee!

I don't know Gou, maybe kenposcum needed that little thrashing for posting a thread like this! I agree though there usually is three sides to ever story!
I hope things work out well for kenposcum and CoopersVee, in the MA when people begin to love their art, and get involved in a liflong journey, emotions usually run very high, sometimes things are takne wrong and blown out of proportion for that reason, maybe thats what happened, either way, nothing should stop you in your training.

7sm

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Bod
The third side is your opinion then Gou?

I don't believe I said that.

 

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I don't know Gou, maybe kenposcum needed that little thrashing for posting a thread like this! I agree though there usually is three sides to ever story!

Hold on to your shorts because...I agree with you. But I will go on to say they both sound like whiney kids. One is whining that he didn't get fair treatment, as if life was EVER fair, and the other sounds like he's a huge guilt trip whiner.

Originally posted by 7starmantis
I hope things work out well for kenposcum and CoopersVee, in the MA when people begin to love their art, and get involved in a liflong journey, emotions usually run very high, sometimes things are takne wrong and blown out of proportion for that reason, maybe thats what happened, either way, nothing should stop you in your training.

D@mn, I agree with you again. Scary. But I doubt it.