MMA vs. SD

[jarrod]

to be fair to the guy, i know exactly what he's talking about...though i use the term "meatheads" to specify them as seperate from the rest of the mma community. one of my proudest achievements as an instructor is taking in one of these meatheads & turning him into a respectful, open minded martial artist...while training him for mma.

jf

 

[Tez3]

I think the fact the MMA students came to learn in a TKD class shows they are open minded and open to being taught, to then be mocked by a TKD instructor doesn't show TKD in a good light.

There is no such thing as an 'MMA hold' the hold will be either BJJ, Judo, Aikido, Karate etc. MMA stands for Mixed Martial Arts.

It is very much martial arts, it has a history far older than many. It was originally Pankration, a striking and grappling art first seen in ancient Greece then Rome. A sport and like any other, hardly. It is full contact and has many of the best sportmanlike attitudes going. Many MMA fighters are traditionally trained, many have BBs in TKD, Karate or Judo. Other have belts in BJJ. yes there's some fans who annoyingly think they know all about fighting but to judge us all by them is ridiculous.

Someone I know, Neil Grove, a BB karateka has just been signed up for the UFC, his karate club still has the 30 man kumite for Nidan grading. You may find this interview with him enlightening.
http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/articles/Neil groves.html

 

[ATC]

Jarrod nicely put!
The title of the thread is provocative, it would be whatever MA V MA you put.
ATC, you managed to get most of the fallacies about MMA into one post, congratulations. After the others had posted though you managed to back pedal quite well. ( Bet you were all just waiting till I got up and read this weren't ya lol)
How rude was it of you, an instructor, to demonstrate a move on a student and when he's obviously seen the point of it, you say 'it sucks when you don't have rules'. Your mindset from the off was that these people also do MMA so gosh I'm going to show them a thing or two now. then you go on to generalise about all MMA practioners, well thanks for that. Yes, we all go around comparing TKD to MMA, we do it all the time....not!
Firstly, there are idiots in all sports and all walks of life, none of us is responsible for them but to generalise the way you did is extremely unfair.

MMA is a sport, how many times have I posted that up now? Yes of course it is and with rules. Most of us do understand that and we train for our sport but we also train for SD and believe me we can do the 'real' SD just as well as everyone else and no the rules of MMA don't get in the way of SD because, guess what, we can switch from one to another quite easily. To give a lesson on sport v SD is pointless and patronising. Do you think the sports TKD people who spar with hands down don't know the difference between that and SD? Do you think wrestlers and grapplers don't know they have to be able to punch it out sometimes or use other methods on the street? That rugby and football players don't know they can't just do rugby and footie tackle on people when they start punching? But you choose to give such a lesson to the MMA guys because you assume well they are MMA, thickies, they only know how to do a sport so I'll show them how to do the real thing. Arrogant?

It's naive to post up up saying on 'I just wanted people to see the difference between SD and sport', of all the places in the world this is the one place I'd put my money on people knowing that! A trip through the past threads and posts would have saved you the effort of this post and my having to splutter through my breakfast answering it.

I'm trying to decide whether to continue about MMA being a style but I think I will not.

Hi Tez, Thanks for your comments. I think I tried to state most of your point in each of my subsequent posts in this thread above.

I guess I should also point out that we get a few MMA fighters that come in and want to learn to kick or strike better. It just so happened that we were doing SD and some Hapkido this one day and this guy popped off and said something to the effect of "Oh this is my world, I got this". He then was showing off and making color belt students tap defeating the lesson purpose for that day.

I then tried to explain that what he does is sport and that in reality they did not have to tap but change their mindset to survival. We debated for a while and then I told him to get me in any of his tap out holds. He said that the rear naked choke was one hold that no one could get out of. I asked (stated) are the hands free? He said yes, I then let him place the hold on me. As he began his choke I reached up behind me and grabbed his ears and jaw bone looking to press on the nerves in those areas. I grabbed and pressed both under the jaw and behind the ears, He let go of the choke giving me an opportunity to lock his knee.

I will not lie to you; there was a sense of panic once the choke was put on me. But with a class of on lookers I followed through with my technique to demonstrate my point.

The comment about the no rules sucking was just the start of our conversation and then we debated some more about real and in the ring.

Many people only know what they see. So we do get a lot of people that come in off the street only know TKD for what they see in the Olympics and YouTube. Just as they only know MMA for what they see on TV as well. Well I don't have to tell you how many of those conversations go.

There is even a thread on this board about Sport TKD hands down fighting and many think that this is not good and have their comments. However there are good reasons for doing this in this sport. You cannot explain it and have it make sense to anyone that has not done it. Many times the only way to have something make sense is to demonstrate and have them experience it.

MMA does resemble what many consider real fighting so I get a fair share of TKD won't work if...type statements form people that only see the sport aspect of TKD. Most if not all of these people do not practice either MMA or TKD but only know what they see so it is hard to debate them. By this student being in the class and experiencing both, it was an opportunity to demonstrate non sport TKD in a perceived real life situation.

Again, I may have come across badly, but meant no disrespect to anyone. This is a discussion forum and my intentions were to one, start a discussion and, two, show the difference between sport and SD.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

to be fair to the guy, i know exactly what he's talking about...though i use the term "meatheads" to specify them as seperate from the rest of the mma community. one of my proudest achievements as an instructor is taking in one of these meatheads & turning him into a respectful, open minded martial artist...while training him for mma.

jf

Meatheads tend to go to whatever is the most popular and perceived as the most macho. So it is that MMA suffers from a seeming overabundance of them. The truth is that there are far fewer meatheads than serious MMA practitioners in MMA; the meatheads just go out of their way to get noticed.

Daniel

 

[redantstyle]

ya, those triplewarmers hurt, but more so in someone who is not adrenalized. PP's can fall by the wayside. as i understand adrenalin overrides some pain receptors. so it's apples and oranges, really.

mma is martial arts just as surely as any other method. what it may not be is self defense orientated. that is the delineator.

the skill sets, mentalities and training are different.

still they are two peas in a pod, and there is quite often a fine line between the two.

regards.

 

[Tez3]

ATC, nice reply and thanks. if you'd made your OP this one instead it would have been a good post.

I've found when men start playing at showing each other techniques often a little bit of rivalry sets in, even in the best of guys lol! Especially when they come from a different style or they are showing me! We had a new guy in the other night, a soldier had done his 'control and restraint' training and wanted to show off a bit, I let him show a move on me as his mate wasn't too willingly, even after he promised it wouldn't hurt. Well it did actually and I could see a faint smirk appearing on his face, there it said, that showed you. So I used an Aikido move to drop him, yep that hurt too. He did not like being dropped by this middle aged lady rofl! See ego, gets in the way.

It's a shame that lad tapped out your lads but then they will have learned a lesson too, don't show off!
He was right, however, about the RNC, when put on fast and properly you won't get out of it. When demo-ing it (as you said...he started to put it on, he didn't crank it on immediately) or even doing it in an MMA comp it's put on slowly, slower in a demo of course. Watch in a fight how slowly it's put on, then imagine it done at speed in a street attack type of situation. A friend of mine who refs pro MMA uses it to get someone off if they won't obey first time he tells them, damn they go out quick. In the street you'd have to be so fast to get it off, better still not to let it get on. In MMA there are ways to get out of it, depending on whether you are prone or standing, yours is a valid way if you can reach up, I rarely can as everyone is bigger than me. . . . . pause for sympathy there people!

I know that panic you get when it's on but the thing about MMA is that while it may not be 'real' fighting, it's the closest you're going to get without going downtown on a Saturday night and calling people out. I don't panic now with the choke and I don't freeze if I'm punched in the face (and yes for those who remember my front tooth is still stuck there very elegantly with superglue) MMA is fight orientated, you train to fight the same as in boxing but it doesn't mean that the techniques can't be utilised for SD. Our instructor will often demo a technique for MMA and then say that if you use this slight variation its good for SD. He was in the army for many years, has done, still does actually close protection work and he also works the doors. He's trained with Geoff Thompson many times, they have similiar backgrounds. We do train SD separately from MMA but many techniques are common to both, the mindset is different but thats not a problem.


Idiots you get everywhere, it was kickboxing before, kung fu before that, I expect even boxing got it. You just have to shrug and remember what the people who really do MMA are like. . . . .very cool of course!

 

[matt.m]

I tell you what, I have a friend that has a 2 and 1 MMA record. He has a base of boxing, Tae Kwon Do, Wrestling, and BJJ. The guy has the work ethic of a worker bee.

Everytime I talk to him he is always training and well look at the guys in the UFC, WEC, and Showtimes promotion. These guys train as hard as Pro Boxers and that is no easy feat. These folks are tough and in great shape physically and cardio wise. I will not knock their training at all.

I for one have the background of Judo, Hapkido, Tae Kwon Do, and Wrestling. I respect anyone who competes. Is it self defense? Not by a long shot, however competition is nothing but a fight with rules. I have seen point sparring matches where both competitors were drenched in sweat, the same with other competitions.

I pose this observation: The better the competitors the better the fighters. Afterall, would you say harsh things about Mike Swan (Judo), Randy Couture (MMA), Jason Han (Tae Kwon Do), Jean Claude Van Damme (Karate), Matt Hughes (Wrestling), afterall they are all world champs in their discipline. Probably not.

Good creedo to follow is "Worry about yourself, put on a belt and train."

 

[Steve]

I pose this observation: The better the competitors the better the fighters. Afterall, would you say harsh things about Mike Swan (Judo), Randy Couture (MMA), Jason Han (Tae Kwon Do), Jean Claude Van Damme (Karate), Matt Hughes (Wrestling), afterall they are all world champs in their discipline. Probably not.

Good creedo to follow is "Worry about yourself, put on a belt and train."

Randy Couture is a wimp. I could take him. And Mike Swain? Phsshhht. Total loser.

 

[matt.m]

Randy Couture is a wimp. I could take him. And Mike Swain? Phsshhht. Total loser.

You bet. That Matt Hughes guy wow, I expected more of him.

 

[Tez3]

On the subject of MMA being a martial art I think it is, the definition of such, proposed by the International Hoplology Society, "A body of organised,codified, repeatable actions, techniques, behaviour, and attitudes the primary intended function and planful design of which is to be used in/for combatative situations" ( Armstrong Weapons and Systems) makes MMA a combat art. It is certainly a combat art.

 

[searcher]

Just a thought on why many think MMA is not a MA, could be from each individual having a little different twist along with it having no name, outside of being called MMA. I like MMA and wish it would be more widely accepted as a MA.


I kinda wish it still had less rules, but what you going to do? The rules have helped it spread.

 

[jarrod]

Just a thought on why many think MMA is not a MA, could be from each individual having a little different twist along with it having no name, outside of being called MMA. I like MMA and wish it would be more widely accepted as a MA.


I kinda wish it still had less rules, but what you going to do? The rules have helped it spread.

i know EXACTLY what you mean about the rules. i'm still pissed off we can't headbutt anymore.

i think that there are many accepted martial arts which have different twists, & mma happens to synthesize most of them, so i think you're right about many people perceiving it as almost discipline-less. personally i tend to be drawn to the styles that encourage free expression & interpretation.

jf

 

[Twin Fist]

MMA=sport, IMO, not MA

just my opinion, you dont have to agree, and really, I dont care if anyone agrees with me

 

[Hand Sword]

The thread is a trick question. All the arts are SD. After all, whether it's "competition" or "for real" isn't it interchangeable? I mean "competiton" has some one attacking you, hitting you, choking you out, etc.. isn't that the same as someone on the street, bar, club etc..? Aren't you in a competion when fighting them too? I would think so, since "winning" is still the objective. I would say that it's all SD and competition, just different forums, with a certain amount of rules to follow or not.

 

[jarrod]

MMA=sport, IMO, not MA

just my opinion, you dont have to agree, and really, I dont care if anyone agrees with me

yeah but the problem is how do you test your SD skills without going to prison?

as i've brought up before, almost every warrior class throughout history has participated in some sort of sport or formalized fighting. it obviously has value for SD.

jf

 

[Twin Fist]

the problem is, when you make it into a sport, you have to, for safety's sake water it down to the point where it isnt deady

that defeats the purpose of training in martial arts

"as you practice, so shall you perform"

I dont train for sport.

but really, that isnt why I dont consider MMA a MA

 

[jarrod]

i'd disagree with you on a couple points (not that you care, as you pointed out )

not all non-sport martial arts are deadly: aikido comes to mind.

sport based competitions remove deadly techniques, yet plenty of boxers die in the ring, a couple mma'ers have, & all martial sports carry a risk of serious injury.

"as you practice, so shall you perform"

very true. however, katas, focus mitts, heavy bag training, makiwara training, uchikomi, & all the other staples of training within various styles do not simulate real combat. nothing does. sport fighting is another training tool, some use it some don't. doesn't matter to me.

i am curious though as to why you don't consider MMA an MA if you'd care to elaborate.

jf

 

[Hand Sword]

Watering down as a basis--I guess. However, the same is done in "reality" also. You don't treat a drunk, who could barely stand up, the same as some boxer who's mad at you and attacks you, or that young street thug who comes at you do you? Again, it's all interchangeable, and ultimately the same. Therefore it's all SD and MA's.

 

[Steve]

If the definition of a martial art is that it is not a sport, than by that definition TKD, Judo, Muay Thai, Kung Fu (or at least Sanda/San Shou), Savatte, Boxing, Wrestling, Fencing , Kyokushin Karate (most karate, really) and bowling are all sports and not martial arts. I'm sure that there are more. What does that leave us?

Well, okay. Bowling isn't a sport.

Seriously. I don't get the "rules" thing. Every martial art has rules for safety. I can understand the position that MMA isn't a codified style and therefore not a Martial Art. That makes sense to me, but the rules thing... I just don't get it.

 

[redantstyle]

Most people have various mental blocks that prevent them from causing serious harm to others. of course, these blocks sometimes crumble under extreme stress. only a certain percentage of the population is truely sociopathic....i.e. 'natural born killers'.

the conventional wisdom is that too much competition dulls the self defensive capability because it tends to reinforce the mental blocks against extreme violence. in the ring, there are rules, and the intent is to 'win' or submit the opponent, not kill him. to be sure, some have died, and others have recieved grevious injuries, but i highly doubt those instances were intentional. nobody was sitting in the dressing room going, " I'm going to go out and murder this guy tonight!"

the system i train in is 'teh d33dly', and our founder had killed multiple men before coming to america. my art is SD MA and not for competition.

beyond the techniques, the real goal of traditional TMA self defense training is to override the inhibitions that are in place against violence. it seeks to break various conditionings, whether they be genetic or social, that effectively 'stop' someone from issuing full force against another.

in short, TMA is intended to create the aforementioned sociopath.

MMA is a martial art, it's just not one that is designed to make people into killers, is all.

and as footnote, the old school tourneys often did result in death, maiming and the like. by those standards, today's MMA and SD arts are highly filtered and/or 'softened'.


regards.

JMBarr
RedAntGungFu
( Liu Seong derivative)