MMA-trained delinquents beat a kid to death

[O'Malley]

I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.

This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?

 

[Steve]

I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.

This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?

do you think we have a systemic issue within MMA and martial arts where we are training criminals and endorsing their criminal behavior? If not, I don't get the point.

 

[Oni_Kadaki]

do you think we have a systemic issue within MMA and martial arts where we are training criminals and endorsing their criminal behavior? If not, I don't get the point.

I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.

 

[Steve]

I think, if nothing else, it's a cautionary tale to never assume your opponent knows less than you.

I can agree with that.

 

[O'Malley]

I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.

I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.

I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?

 

[Headhunter]

I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.

I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.

I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?

A well known criminal allowed to fight pro.....yeah....Jon Jones, Conor McGregor, Jason Miller, Lee Murray just to name a few.

there’s really not a lot you can do. You can’t insist on a criminal record check unless they’re teaching children and even if they have got a criminal past that shouldn’t stop them training either. Because some people can use it to change and better themselves. Obviously it depends on the crime as well. Street fighting and small time stuff then yeah but if it’s something like murder, rape, child abuse then no I wouldn’t teach those people but at the end of the day there really is no way of finding out unless they’re open about it. All you can do is watch everyone and if you see something off about their personality then monitor it and take it from there

 

[Buka]

I certainly don't think that MMA gyms encourage criminal behaviour. Not the ones I know. However, I wonder about the place those gangsters train at.

I don't know what kind of systemic measures are in place in MMA federations and gyms to ensure that fighting skills are not taught to gangsters and psychopaths.

I just know that a well-known criminal was allowed to run amok and still fight as a pro. I also know that he'll be, at least for a big part of the general public here, the face of MMA in Italy fro the next weeks. I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this. How do you deal with bad apples? Should anyone be allowed to train? Any similar experiences?

I get a little upset when I read things like what happened in the first post. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, I don't know.

I don't know if "anybody should be allowed to train". When I ran my old dojo, which lasted many years, prospective students had to fill out an application that was five pages long and asked a lot of questions. Some people told me I had no right to ask those questions. I informed them it was a private club, but you didn't really have to answer them. Then I pointed to the door. I'd do it in a nice way, but that's how I did it.

It was a city school and the majority of students were young men. It let them know exactly what they would be dealing with, and what they were getting their young ashes into. All police, firefighters, EMTs and emergency workers trained for free. Most single parent families did as well. And we kind of had a reputation for helping, shy, awkward kids. Everybody took them under their wings.

As for bad apples....I always did like making applesauce.

 

[lklawson]

was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground.

Yep, getting kicked in the head can, and does, kill people.

A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media.

It's nice when criminals admit to their crimes and help police catch them and prosecutors convict them.

The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.

What? You mean bad guys and gangs can practice martial arts too? When did this start?

This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion.

Knitting?

Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy".

Ever.

Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life.

I'm shocked that I still have to say this to anyone. But if you get in a fight there is a non-zero chance that you will be permanently injured, killed, or go to prison for the rest of your life. Non-zero.

I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation.

I wonder if he is part of the gang? Sponsor member?

It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?

You've never heard of the Triads? The Mafia (stiletto training)? Yakuza? South African "Piper" knife?

Bad guys and gangs have ALWAYS had access to martial training.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[O'Malley]

I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave? Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town? Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?

I'm not naive. I practice a martial art (aikido) whose founder had close ties to violent ultranationalist movements. I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean. I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.

Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.

 

[Headhunter]

I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave? Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town? Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?

I'm not naive. I practice a martial art (aikido) whose founder had close ties to violent ultranationalist movements. I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean. I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.

Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.

If you don’t licence every single fighter with a record then there’ll be very few Fighters left. Everyone should be given the opportunity to change and numerous fighters have changed because they had fighting whether it be boxing, kickboxing or mma to focus on and channel that aggression.

Also simply no..there’s no way to know if someone’s got a record unless they tell you and you can’t force them to tell you either.
You’ve just got to do what you can do to control things best you can but at the end of the day a martial arts teacher isn’t their daddy. They’re job is to teach martial arts they can’t afford to be getting police checks for everyone Who walks in their door. Yes if they could then it’d be perfect but the reality is it doesn’t work that way

 

[lklawson]

I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave?

Better? By who's definition of "misbehave?" If you want to make sure an authorizing federation yanks credentials for people who are doing things you think are bad, then you can either be influential in whatever fed credentials them or start your own. IOW, join the MMA federation and get important enough with them to be able to throw your weight around and get what you want done.

Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town?

Sure it'd be nice. If everyone could agree on what constitutes "terrorizing."

Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?

Sure it'd be nice. But first we all have to agree, across multiple cultures, what constitutes "ethical" behavior.

I'm not naive.

I'm unconvinced.

I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean.

Nothing. Governments have been working for centuries to try to keep corruption and vice out of various sports. They have to power to bring lots of heavily armed men and kill you or put you in prison for ever. But even they haven't been able to keep organizations "clean." You want a clean organization, then you have to either try to work from the inside to clean it up or get out of it.

I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.

"the rising threat of far-right extremism?" Oh good gravy. Leave your politics and bias out of this shiz before a dozen other people start posting examples of "the rising threat of far-left extremism" and this whole thread turns into a sh*t-show then gets locked. Let's just agree that there's plenty of violence to go around, both associated and associated with, literally, any and every political or religious ideology and every ethnic background.

Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.

I very briefly trained with a guy once upon a time who told me of an oral history. Outside of that, there are numerous similar sources making such claims.

But, like the criminal misuse of the Slungshot, I rather doubt anyone from that culture wrote a history book or martial manual contemporary to the time period.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Steve]

If you don’t licence every single fighter with a record then there’ll be very few Fighters left. Everyone should be given the opportunity to change and numerous fighters have changed because they had fighting whether it be boxing, kickboxing or mma to focus on and channel that aggression.

Also simply no..there’s no way to know if someone’s got a record unless they tell you and you can’t force them to tell you either.
You’ve just got to do what you can do to control things best you can but at the end of the day a martial arts teacher isn’t their daddy. They’re job is to teach martial arts they can’t afford to be getting police checks for everyone Who walks in their door. Yes if they could then it’d be perfect but the reality is it doesn’t work that way

I agree with the first part. But if desired, it wouldn't be that hard to do a background check. Would it?

Now, that said, there are some new laws in the USA with regards to discriminating against people just because the have a record. Be worth looking at.

 

[lklawson]

I get a little upset when I read things like what happened in the first post. Maybe I'm just too sensitive, I don't know.

I don't know if "anybody should be allowed to train". When I ran my old dojo, which lasted many years, prospective students had to fill out an application that was five pages long and asked a lot of questions. Some people told me I had no right to ask those questions. I informed them it was a private club, but you didn't really have to answer them. Then I pointed to the door. I'd do it in a nice way, but that's how I did it.

It was a city school and the majority of students were young men. It let them know exactly what they would be dealing with, and what they were getting their young ashes into. All police, firefighters, EMTs and emergency workers trained for free. Most single parent families did as well. And we kind of had a reputation for helping, shy, awkward kids. Everybody took them under their wings.

As for bad apples....I always did like making applesauce.

I had to get a background check to teach under the USJA. They made me pay for it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[drop bear]

I see what you mean, Kirk, however wouldn't it be better if federations took away the license of pro fighters that misbehave? Wouldn't it be better if coaches refused to teach MA to those known to terrorise the town? Wouldn't it be better if federations excluded clubs that don't comply with ethical standards?

I'm not naive. I practice a martial art (aikido) whose founder had close ties to violent ultranationalist movements. I'm just wondering whether more can be done to keep clubs and federations clean. I find it worthy of reflexion, considering the reported links between, for example, some MMA clubs, federations and fighters and the rising threat of far-right extremism.

Btw I'd be curious to read your sources on stiletto training among mafia members. The only one I've found was a mention on Wikipedia about a Black Hand section in the US that had a training facility.

The far right extremism and MMA is a blast from the past.

I think that came up ten years ago. And they were kind of terrible. Which would make sense as a lot of Brazilians are pretty dark. You wouldn't get much quality training.

 

[O'Malley]

Better? By who's definition of "misbehave?" If you want to make sure an authorizing federation yanks credentials for people who are doing things you think are bad, then you can either be influential in whatever fed credentials them or start your own. IOW, join the MMA federation and get important enough with them to be able to throw your weight around and get what you want done.

Sure it'd be nice. If everyone could agree on what constitutes "terrorizing."

Sure it'd be nice. But first we all have to agree, across multiple cultures, what constitutes "ethical" behavior.

In this case, the guys had been convicted for battery and drug dealing. I'm pretty sure it's considered unethical behaviour in your culture as well.

"the rising threat of far-right extremism?" Oh good gravy. Leave your politics and bias out of this shiz before a dozen other people start posting examples of "the rising threat of far-left extremism" and this whole thread turns into a sh*t-show then gets locked. Let's just agree that there's plenty of violence to go around, both associated and associated with, literally, any and every political or religious ideology and every ethnic background.

That part is a bit misguided. It has nothing to do with my own political opinions (that you don't know ), far-right extremism is widely recognised as one of the rising threats to global security. No need to refer to recent incidents, just ask Europol (Terrorism Situation and Trend Report 2019 (TE-SAT) ) or the UN (https://www.un.org/sc/ctc/wp-conten...Trends_Alert_Extreme_Right-Wing_Terrorism.pdf ).

I very briefly trained with a guy once upon a time who told me of an oral history. Outside of that, there are numerous similar sources making such claims.

You sounded like you knew something about it. Frankly, I had hoped for a better answer.

 

[O'Malley]

The far right extremism and MMA is a blast from the past.

I think that came up ten years ago. And they were kind of terrible. Which would make sense as a lot of Brazilians are pretty dark. You wouldn't get much quality training.

Makes sense. I wonder about the situation today, though.

 

[drop bear]

Makes sense. I wonder about the situation today, though.

I had a look and soccer hooligans in the more eastern European countries are mad keen for a MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was reading the news and I read a story that troubled me as a martial artist. In Colleferro, near Rome (Italy), 21 year-old Willy Monteiro Duarte was killed trying to stop a fight involving another 21 y.o. against brothers Marco, 26, and Gabriele Bianchi, 24, Mario Pincarelli, 22, Francesco Belleggia, 21, and another man. The five of them beat up Willy, who was killed by a kick to the head as he was lying on the ground. A few hours after his death, the group was making ironic posts on social media. The Bianchi brothers were long-time MMA practitioners. They were well-known in the region as the "Artena gang", as they terrorised the population, sold drugs and beat up whoever was in their way. Probably had ties with organised crime as well.

This is a very sad story, which got me thinking about our common passion. Sometimes, the attacker is not the "average, untrained guy". Sometimes, whatever training you have could not save your life. I also wonder how come their coach was still training them, considering their criminal record and reputation. It is a real disgrace for MMA and martial arts in general and I just wanted to share it. Thoughts?

The only thought I have is the one that I have always heard from TMA teachers. "Don't be on the ground"

 

[ShortBridge]

In one of my first martial arts gyms, a guy joined who was about 20 and when the teacher asked him why he wanted training, his answer was "I want to be a trained killer".

I was there for Muay Thai, but the head instructor was an Escrima champion. He kind of laughed and then took the guy's money and started training him on knives.

I sparred with the guy a bit and he never struck me as particularly dangerous, but I don't think he was kidding.

I run my school very differently.

 

[O'Malley]

I had a look and soccer hooligans in the more eastern European countries are mad keen for a MMA.

Yep, so I have heard. There are also reports of organised group fights between hooligan factions. The nexus between soccer hooligans and extremist groups/organised crime is pretty well-known but it would be interesting to look at these groups' involvement in martial arts.

The only thought I have is the one that I have always heard from TMA teachers. "Don't be on the ground"

It's never fun down there, right? Unless you're a BJJ guy and you're isolated from the opponent's buddies, then it's a cakewalk.

In one of my first martial arts gyms, a guy joined who was about 20 and when the teacher asked him why he wanted training, his answer was "I want to be a trained killer".

I was there for Muay Thai, but the head instructor was an Escrima champion. He kind of laughed and then took the guy's money and started training him on knives.

I sparred with the guy a bit and he never struck me as particularly dangerous, but I don't think he was kidding.

I run my school very differently.

That's interesting, how do you run your school? Do you have some kind of disciplinary policy?