mma as self defense

[bushidomartialarts]

Here's a new take on this tired, tedious argument.

Self-defense is staying alive and able despite...challenges. TMA and MMA each have their own pros and cons on the physical side. Mostly it boils down to how you train, not what you train in.

But let's look at real self-defense. If you really want to focus on things that might kill or disable you, a violent confrontation is statistically a bad bet. Look at the CDC statistics on death and injury. Assault and murder don't make the top ten.

What's gonna get you are diet, exercise, stress and lifestyle. In these departments, TMA (taught traditionally, not mcdojo style) wins hands down in my experience. MMA doesn't often teach meditation, lifestyle hacks or anger management techniques. True, MMA has more rigorous workouts, but they're really not sustainable into our later years. I will give a point to MMA for nutrition and diet..although weight cutting still happens and isn't good long term.

That 80 year old martial artist who can still do the splits and is still on the seminar circuit (Phil Porter and Cacoy Canete leap to mind)? That's gonna be a TMA guy.

 

[Tez3]

Here's a new take on this tired, tedious argument.

Self-defense is staying alive and able despite...challenges. TMA and MMA each have their own pros and cons on the physical side. Mostly it boils down to how you train, not what you train in.

But let's look at real self-defense. If you really want to focus on things that might kill or disable you, a violent confrontation is statistically a bad bet. Look at the CDC statistics on death and injury. Assault and murder don't make the top ten.

What's gonna get you are diet, exercise, stress and lifestyle. In these departments, TMA (taught traditionally, not mcdojo style) wins hands down in my experience.hack MMA doesn't often teach meditation, lifestyle s or anger management techniques. True, MMA has more rigorous workouts, but they're really not sustainable into our later years. I will give a point to MMA for nutrition and diet..although weight cutting still happens and isn't good long term.

That 80 year old martial artist who can still do the splits and is still on the seminar circuit (Phil Porter and Cacoy Canete leap to mind)? That's gonna be a TMA guy.[/quote]


Please don't be so sure of these points, most TMAs I've trained with or have watched train don't do meditation, lifestyle or anger management techniques. MMA workouts are very sustainable well into your later years, I have a friend who is over 60 and still competing MMA. http://www.skiphall.com/

He'll still be fighting when he's 80 as will a lot of other fighters. There are many misconceptions about MMA, people think it's lower class thugs pounding away in the gym instead of thoughtful, intelligent people, many of whom are university educated. An MMA forum here did a survey of MMA peoples professions, the vast majority were in what you call white collar jobs, there are doctors, physiotherapists,teachers, university professors, IT specialists,police officers, firemen, medics, nurses,business people,bankers, social workers and military personnel. A very small minority were door people and fitness instructors. The vast majority also came from and still practised, in many cases teaching as well, a TMA. Most are into healthy eating and healthy lifestyles, many don't drink alcohol at all and most don't smoke. Our life style and training is very sustainable, we use professional help when we have injuries and train sensibly. Our martial arts careers will carrying on until we are very old trust me!

 

[Tez3]

Here's a new take on this tired, tedious argument.

Self-defense is staying alive and able despite...challenges. TMA and MMA each have their own pros and cons on the physical side. Mostly it boils down to how you train, not what you train in.

But let's look at real self-defense. If you really want to focus on things that might kill or disable you, a violent confrontation is statistically a bad bet. Look at the CDC statistics on death and injury. Assault and murder don't make the top ten.

What's gonna get you are diet, exercise, stress and lifestyle. In these departments, TMA (taught traditionally, not mcdojo style) wins hands down in my experience.hack MMA doesn't often teach meditation, lifestyle s or anger management techniques. True, MMA has more rigorous workouts, but they're really not sustainable into our later years. I will give a point to MMA for nutrition and diet..although weight cutting still happens and isn't good long term.

That 80 year old martial artist who can still do the splits and is still on the seminar circuit (Phil Porter and Cacoy Canete leap to mind)? That's gonna be a TMA guy.[/quote]


Please don't be so sure of these points, most TMAs I've trained with or have watched train don't do meditation, lifestyle or anger management techniques. MMA workouts are very sustainable well into your later years, I have a friend who is over 60 and still competing MMA. http://www.skiphall.com/

He'll still be fighting when he's 80 as will a lot of other fighters. There are many misconceptions about MMA, people think it's lower class thugs pounding away in the gym instead of thoughtful, intelligent people, many of whom are university educated. An MMA forum here did a survey of MMA peoples professions, the vast majority were in what you call white collar jobs, there are doctors, physiotherapists,teachers, university professors, IT specialists,police officers, firemen, medics, nurses,business people,bankers, social workers and military personnel. A very small minority were door people and fitness instructors. The vast majority also came from and still practise, in many cases teaching as well, a TMA. Most are into healthy eating and healthy lifestyles, many don't drink alcohol at all and most don't smoke. Our life style and training is very sustainable, we use professional help when we have injuries and train sensibly. Our martial arts careers will carrying on until we are very old trust me!

 

[bushidomartialarts]

You raise some interesting points as always, T.

And you're right, not all TMA places teach anger management, meditation, etc. Can you agree, though, that in a random sampling of MMA & TMA places, you'll find them more often in TMA?

Not that I'd be sad to see them in MMA, or that don't I think more TMA schools should teach that sort of thing. I've trained (and taught) extensively on both sides and found far more acceptance of all the 'hippy stuff' in the TMA crowd.

Kudos to your friend, by the way. That's pretty exceptional, regardless of style.

 

[Tez3]

You raise some interesting points as always, T.

And you're right, not all TMA places teach anger management, meditation, etc. Can you agree, though, that in a random sampling of MMA & TMA places, you'll find them more often in TMA?

Not that I'd be sad to see them in MMA, or that don't I think more TMA schools should teach that sort of thing. I've trained (and taught) extensively on both sides and found far more acceptance of all the 'hippy stuff' in the TMA crowd.

Kudos to your friend, by the way. That's pretty exceptional, regardless of style.

I think my computer was playing tricks on me with that post lol! Or my fingers are wandering!

I think the British character doesn't lend itself very well to 'hippy' stuff I'm afraid so the emphasis over here has always been on the 'hard' stuff, the fighting and techniques. Meditation hasn't caught on much which I think is a big shame, I'm sure though if it's to be found in MA it would probably be in the TMAs. We do have many fighters who follow sports psychology though, with visualisation techniques etc, probably the closest you'll get here to hippy stuff lol.

Skip Hall is an amazing man, a Vietnam Vet (Spec forces injured a couple of times) a real gentleman, very charming, has a fund of stories and is a good fighter as well as judging on UFC. His background is TMA btw, when he came over to fight on one of our shows he came to our club and told the children to train hard and to practice kata as it was important. ( the mums couldn't take their eyes off him lol, wonderful body and he's very charming) If anyone can train with him I recommend it highly.

 

[Sukerkin]

Its like someone who learned to swim without ever stepping in the water (TMA) vrs someone who learned in a pool with floaters on.(MMA)
Throw em both in the ocean. Which one do you think will survive?

I like this analogy a lot, Drag'n :tup:.

Almost inevitably, my answer to the question is the opposite of your own but that doesn't invalidate the analogy in the slightest.

EDIT: My answer to the question is that my money woud be on the chap who learned how to swim out of the water but trained in the proper strokes. He may have learned out of the medium but inculcated the necessary techniques without limitation or augmentation. Chuck him in the water and, if he keeps his head, he'll do just fine.

 

[Sukerkin]

Just to slightly OT comment on Tez's point about the general type of person who trains in MA. I quite agree with you that the answer can be quite surprising. In my Iai class we have:

Software Control Systems engineer (previously Museum Curator)
Acoustics Engineer
Network Support Engineer
Nurse/Healthcare Manager
Web Designer
Project Manager (Civil Engineering)

Most (if not all) have at least one degree, some have a couple and one has a doctorate . Not thugs with swords after all :lol:.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Just to slightly OT comment on Tez's point about the general type of person who trains in MA. I quite agree with you that the answer can be quite surprising. In my Iai class we have:

Software Control Systems engineer (previously Museum Curator)
Acoustics Engineer
Network Support Engineer
Nurse/Healthcare Manager
Web Designer
Project Manager (Civil Engineering)

Most (if not all) have at least one degree, some have a couple and one has a doctorate . Not thugs with swords after all :lol:.

Of course, Iai is definitely a TMA, at least as I've been taught...in some ways closer to Tai Chi.

 

[Tez3]

I am curious however to know if the word 'floaters' has the same connatations in the States as it does in my neck of the woods because all I could think of when I read the swimming analogy was oh yuck!

 

[Sukerkin]

Ewww! That never occurred to me whilst I was considering the neatness of the analogy - that would be a time to learn how to hover rather than swim .

Anyhow, I don't want to haul the thread off-track any more so I'll shush (tho' Bushi's interesting comment about Iai may inspire me to open another thread once I get back from dinner tonight.

 

[EastCoastKenpoist]

Being a Kenpo 2000 student, that is where my point of view is coming from.

The core of our art is Attitude, then come logic, basics, and fitness.

That is 90% of our art.

So take 2 extreme examples, fighter A is a young fit "sport" fighter and fighter B is an older not quite fit, but more knowledgeable fighter, if fighter A has enough logic, and good enough basics to make the altercation into a fight, fitness is going to win.

Fitness is not enough of a priority in many schools.

 

[Brian S]

Being an FMA guy, I must disagree. (Waiting for the Universal cry of outrage...)

While it is entertaining to watch (and I do with a near-religious fervor!!), it is my contention that ANY fight sport is just that, a sport. Prize fighters stop short of delivering a blow to the head/throat/eyes that would kill or cripple in a self-defense situation.

I guess in your dojo you guys kill eachother on a regular basis?

I don't care what anyone says... you DO fight like you train. If you're training for combat you will train with the destruction of your enemy in mind (see USMC boot camp). If you are training for a tournament you will NEVER train the killing/crippling strikes that are the bread and butter of a combat fighter.

And just like in your dojo, they have set rules to spar by. These killing and crippling strikes are just theoretical, you can not practice them well enough to be proficient.

MMA is better than nothing when it comes to self-defense, but too many folks train MMA with a mind for 3, 5 minute rounds, and forget that in the dark alley there is no referee, no points deducted for low blows and no disqualification for eye-gouges and bites to the face!

Come on. How hard is it to eye gouge and bite the face? Don't you think an MMA fighter could do that? Or do they need to train in an Okinawan Ryu to be able to bite?

I will take NOTHING away from the UFC/WEC/MMA crowd. Pound for pound, they are some of the toughest humans on the planet! And I certainly wouldn't want to fight any one of them on his terms! But we all need to remember that these guys are PRO's!

I think for the rest of us unwashed masses, relying on sport fighting for self-defense is foolish and teaching a combat sport as self-defense is irresponsible.

What is irresponsible is teaching a TMA art and calling it self defense when half the people in there go maybe twice a week and train for two hours. The rest of the week they are sitting back eating cheetos and watching UFC. They are only deadly in their minds because they know the 'true secrets' of real combat.

WRONG. They wouldn't last thirty seconds in a back alley with a good mma fighter because they are not used to fighting with resistance, they are not use to being punched in the face, and they are not use to the uke resisting.

The answer is not in TMA or strictly MMA. You should have a little bit of everything in it all. Most of all you need to be in shape, most TMA guys are not.

I am a TMA guy, and I am a realist!