Mixing Lineages

[Si-Je]

Is the problem truly in chain punching or is it people who chain punch rigidly?
I'm not saying that chainpunching is the be all end all of WC tactics necessarilly, but rather than throw out the baby with the bath water, shouldn't the approach be to make your punches more springy and fluid, and then if someone tries to trap them down, your punches would deviate into something else.....kup jarn from biu tze "springs" to mind.

no. the problem isn't chain punching. It's WHEN you chain punch and how.
Mook is the man. He can punch fast and soft.
I'm just a gwilo. Nothing like "Shaun seal the deal " lol!
Not a wing-jitsu expert. lol
man, sorry,. didn't mean to be rude. Your post is awesome!
Note: remember to kick while your chain punching. That's just basics
WT basic I know. Train on. Your on the way and beyond me. for sure.
I still haven't figured why they won't delete me from here.
Frustrating.
Guess they don't want to lose what I've said. over and over and over.......
Bummer.
Delete me!

 

[Si-Je]

I command you to delete me!!!!

 

[Punchy]

no. the problem isn't chain punching. It's WHEN you chain punch and how.
Mook is the man. He can punch fast and soft.
I'm just a gwilo. Nothing like "Shaun seal the deal " lol!
Not a wing-jitsu expert. lol
man, sorry,. didn't mean to be rude. Your post is awesome!
Note: remember to kick while your chain punching. That's just basics
WT basic I know. Train on. Your on the way and beyond me. for sure.
I still haven't figured why they won't delete me from here.
Frustrating.
Guess they don't want to lose what I've said. over and over and over.......
Bummer.
Delete me!

I've come to the conclusion, that a master is not someone who can make a technique work because he's practiced it 10's of thousands of times. Rather, because he's practiced it 10's of thousands of times, he knows when (and how ) to use it at the right time.

 

[jks9199]

Delete me!

Don't want to be here -- don't check the site. Delete it from your Favorites file. Stop responding. You've got to be proactively coming here unless you set MT as your browser's home page. Your request has been received and has been forwarded to the appropriate staff members.

But since I'm here, let me address a couple things.

A few of the mods here happen to be or have been employed as LEOs. That ain't why we're here, and it ain't why we're mods. And I'm not modding on this thread, as I'm involved in it.

Very few academies base their DT training on any one martial art. Very simply, the needs are quite different.

And my sole point with my previous replies to you on this thread has been simple: Quite working so hard to figure things out and simply train. EVERY art is good, in the hands of someone who practices and trains diligently. You're locked on various versions of Wing Chun. Cool. Enjoy 'em. But you walked away from training with your ex-husband, and apparently kept one of his worst legacies: the assumption that Wing Chun is superior to everything else. Reassess that.

No one nation has a monopoly on sunlight. No one religion, race, culture, or system has a monopoly on truth.

(Oh, and by the way, we can close your account -- but we rarely remove content unless it has violated the rules.)

 

[Vajramusti]

On mixing lineages? In my opinion... Not necessary if you are in a good one and have a good sifu...and you are on your way in your own development.
But finding a good sifu is not always easy.

joy chaudhuri

 

[MJS]

didn't mean to belittle. (well maybe a bit.
I "understand" the "ground".
Studied JJJ
And kicking
And kung fu
and wc
blah, blah.

Do BJJ on an airplane. I challenge you to do so! Just practice it. It won't work.
Whatever, L.E.O.
Worked with you guys, ya'll tough but .... mean well.

You assume alot dont you. As I said, some mods here are LEOs, some are not. I am not. You're also assuming that I'm encouraging going to the ground. Not the case at all. I simply said that the ground stuff that they learn will or should be different than the average Joe. Furthermore, anything we learn, is just another tool in our box. IMO, there is no 1 specific thing that is the answer in every single situation.

As for the BJJ on the plane..LOL...again, an assumption that when one hears BJJ, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, that it means the ground. There are many controlling methods, including chokes, that can be done while standing.

Yes, the average citizen doesn't learn much of martial arts. Weird that ya'll always comandere a civilian to teach you MA.
Weird.
Anyways. Delete me.
Thank you.

It seems to me that you're not happy here. Perhaps you should do what I suggested in response to your request for account closure....don't log on anymore.

 

[Yoshin9]

Chain punching is just like joint locks, there is a right time and a wrong time, as long as you chain punch at the right time it will work. Why? Because it was the right time.

Any technique can be used at the wrong time.

 

[bully]

I tried a different lineage earlier in the year as I didnt have a choice...either train alone or with a lineage I didnt know.
I took some advice off here...and was lucky enough to get advice from a member who had trained in the lineage.
It was too different, for not just me but some of the other guys who came too compared to what we knew. Different not wrong.
Rather than focus on what I couldnt get my head around, I took the positives away from what I learned.
Hopefully in the future I will be able to train with the Sifu again when I have grown in my knowledge of WC (that is what I think held me back) he was very skilled and even though some of what he showed us went totally against what I have been taught....He dominated me in Chi Sau and every other drill that we did. Not in a bullying way but in a skills way if you know what I mean.
So I think you can mix lineages but just use what works for you.
Si Je I think you should come back and chat.....its only an internet forum!! ;-)
What is a LEO? I was born in August so am I one? ;-)

 

[jks9199]

LEO is an abbreviation for Law Enforcement Officer. It's a broader term than "police" or "cop" because it includes all the various special agents, sheriffs and their deputies, constables, and whatever other form of law enforcement officer you can come up with.

 

[geezer]

The question is do you believe anyone person has all the answers? If you answer no then there is no reason not to seek out different teachers . You may learn something!

Actually, there is a practical reason why many do not seek-out different teachers, other than just being narrow minded. That reason is the jealousy and clannishness of the various lineages. Most are not welcoming to outsiders and equally intolerant of having their members training under other sifus. It's not just a matter of greed and fear of losing students, it's a whole mindset not unlike what you encounter in some religious sects. IMHO it's something that has really held back our system.

 

[geezer]

Chain punching is just like joint locks, there is a right time and a wrong time, as long as you chain punch at the right time it will work. Why? Because it was the right time.

Any technique can be used at the wrong time.

I agree. Furthermore, chain-punching is something a beginner can learn to apply quickly. A student with only a few months training can advance aggressively with chain punching and have pretty good results, especially against an equally inexperienced opponent. The problem arises when it becomes a predictable habit, overused, often at the wrong time.

 

[Si-Je]

Actually, there is a practical reason why many do not seek-out different teachers, other than just being narrow minded. That reason is the jealousy and clannishness of the various lineages. Most are not welcoming to outsiders and equally intolerant of having their members training under other sifus. It's not just a matter of greed and fear of losing students, it's a whole mindset not unlike what you encounter in some religious sects. IMHO it's something that has really held back our system.

Thank you Geezer, exactly the train of thought I was trying to state.
I'm lucky that this Sifu doen't mind students from other Lineages. He really doesn't like WT (Emin or LT) but seems to like me a lot.
I think mainly because he understands my meaning and purpose for training and we get along. He knows I'm not going to learn from him and pass it on to another Lineages founder. (I'll share with students though)
Plus he sees how much I love it and how much the art means to me.

I do wish WC/WT/VT could all play nice together more and strengthen the art overall. The fact that they don't is causing the art to lose a lot of technique and effectiveness. I think most lineages have much to offer and if they would offer it to each other the end product would be a very strong, effective and well rounded style for all.

Like Emins anti-grappling. I've only gotten a very basic taste of it and it's just brilliant. I would love to be able to get to a seminar or train that aspect more exclusively especially because it's just not availiable in any other lineage and it's a very great contribution to the entire art as a whole. Much like what Fung exemplifies with Dai Sau applications and breaking structure/chi is a great contribution to the art. Combine the strengths of each lineage to help weed out the weaknesses of each lineage.

I've found I relied too much on chain punching and my boxing is weak. A thought about application of chain punching:

69-The Tao
The generals have a saying:
"Rather than make the first move
it is better to wait and see.
Rather than advance an inch
it is better to retreat a yard."

This is called
going forward without advancing,
pushing back without using weapons.

There is no greater misfortune
than underestimating your enemy.

 

[mook jong man]

Wing Chun is an aggressive , attacking system and chain punching or continuous punching as we call it is a very handy tool , but it is only one of many tools that you should have in your arsenal.

Another good tool to have is commonsense , the commonsense to realise when something is not working and change to something else.

If your chain punching is being obstructed , for God's sake don't stand there like an idiot and keep trying to batter your way through their arms.
This is one of the reasons we practice chi sau , so that if we encounter resistance we can quickly change tact and go around the resistance or create our own gap in the opponents defence.

Use your chain punching to gain an attachment to their forearms and rip them down , if you encounter resistance change direction and push them sideways on the upper arm so his whole body gets turned and then strike low with palm strikes or hook punches to the rib cage .

If he's quite relaxed and matching your hand speed , start alternating between chain punching and latching in conjunction with low kicking , forcing him to divert his attention and fight a war on two fronts.

 

[KamonGuy2]

Wing Chun is an aggressive , attacking system and chain punching or continuous punching as we call it is a very handy tool , but it is only one of many tools that you should have in your arsenal.

Another good tool to have is commonsense , the commonsense to realise when something is not working and change to something else.

If your chain punching is being obstructed , for God's sake don't stand there like an idiot and keep trying to batter your way through their arms.
This is one of the reasons we practice chi sau , so that if we encounter resistance we can quickly change tact and go around the resistance or create our own gap in the opponents defence.

Use your chain punching to gain an attachment to their forearms and rip them down , if you encounter resistance change direction and push them sideways on the upper arm so his whole body gets turned and then strike low with palm strikes or hook punches to the rib cage .

If he's quite relaxed and matching your hand speed , start alternating between chain punching and latching in conjunction with low kicking , forcing him to divert his attention and fight a war on two fronts.

As always, valuable advice. People often look for a quick fix and rely on one super attack to win the fight. You should be flexible and adaptive - include training against moving and 'awkward' opponents

A lot of chunners do not move backwards when they train (ie they want to blitz in with attacks), which is okay to an extent. Yet moving backwards allows you to absorb the opponents energy, and allows you to create gaps in that persons structure. I love stretching a person out and then attacking around that, as it makes counter attacks from your opponent less likely (ie their arms are at full reach with no power)
Especially against grabs and clinches where an opponent is coming in with force - it is essential to stretch that person out rather than try to break his grip from a tight distance

As SiJe has stated - every wing chun system has something different to offer and Ive never had any personal grudges with how people train etc. Where my frustration comes is when 'masters' claim they are doing something unique or make outrageous claims that they cant back up. There are some truly humble kung fu guys out there and it is a shame that they often get tarred with the same brush because of the art they train in, rather than who they are

 

[wtxs]

Si-Je, what method do you use to stop chain punching?

I agree with #1 rule: And I do NOT go to a school and try to "test" them with my other WT or whatever. Respectful, that's why I don't chain punch. (I did once and it got just "slapped" away. lol! Hey, teach asked me to. Mental note: "don't always do what the teacher asks." lol!) They're teaching me something else, another option. What I know comes out in a heat, but not on purpose.
Besides, they can deal with that just fine.

Hey Yak Sao, here is your answer in an round about way.

Now how many hand techniques can you think of in applying this "slap" as an counter to the chain punch?

 

[zepedawingchun]

Hey Yak Sao, here is your answer in an round about way.

Now how many hand techniques can you think of in applying this "slap" as an counter to the chain punch?

Performing pak sau is not an effective way of stopping the chain punch or battle punch. You may pak sau the first 2 punches, but the 3rd punch (and anything after that) should slip through to the target because you should be able to punch faster than someone can pak sau. Actually all the punches should travel faster than the slap and get into the target.

Perform a pak da (pak sau with one hand and punch with the other) while cutting an angle and entering from the side on the arms of the chain punching is a much better option. The da or punch to the throat or face, will break your opponents rhythm and jam up their punches, most likely stopping the chain punches.

This, like everything else, is hypothetical to you, because who knows how your opponent will respond. But I have found this way is much more successful to stopping someone battle punching than just pak sau their hands.

 

[mook jong man]

I find that rapidly alternating from Tan to Bong with my front hand while going forward tends to deflect and jam up their punches.

If I find that I'm starting to get overwhelmed by their speed and power then I synchronize my Tan with a step to the flank so that my body is orientated 45 degrees to him and attack from the side.

Its important that you keep in contact with the outside of his arm so you are protected as you move around otherwise he is liable to read your intentions and Fak sau you in the neck.

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . . and he can stop the WT blitz method of chain punching easy. (I can now too. It's so easy it's kinda embarrising ).

Blitz method of punching is not chain punching, it's battle punching, chair hung choi (kuen). Like stated, it is a blitz of punches with or without a rhythum used in combat going foreward, meant to run over or just over-power your opponent with the intent of striking them.

Chain punching or lin wan choi (kuen) is just like it says, a chain of punches one right behind the other, going on for a space of time without intent. The difference is you most likely do it stationary, as a drill training a partners response to the punching. It is done in a rhythum, from YGKYM, but not meant as an attck or defense, just training with a punch constantly coming to your partner.

Chain punching is no problem to stop because you are drilling. But battle punching is very, very hard to stop because it's in combat.

. . . . . . .He has no Chit Sau (Fung) but a variant of WT lower gate deflection (forgot the name, no "chopping" sideways motion just goes foreward. Or maybe I was taught wrong. Never used that WT deflection always used Chit Sau) .

You are giving the definition of gan sau (pronounced gahn or gaun). Some people also call it gong sau. I never heard the term chit sau until coming to this forum. I'm not quite sure what that motion looks like. I assume it is a downward hacking motion to protect the lower gate.

 

[Si-Je]

Wow. I'll try to respond to a few different posters and ideas.

1. This lineage goes backwards. This is really "weird" for me because I just don't know how to do it "wing chun" style. It was drilled into me to NEVER step backwards. So this is a HUGE adjustment to the range of my stance work.

2. The chain punching/battle blitz thing. It's so much easier to absolutely stop either without using tan, bong or pac sau. I don't know another way to describe it right now other than "slapping" it away. But more accurately would be to say "shutting" it down or collapsing the chain punching movement into itself. It's trippy.

3. Chit Sau is like a knife edge "chop" motion going foreward into the attacker. Gong sau is (to me) like a lower gate "bong sau". Same arm position just lower. Then there is the WT movement that is neither but it sort of "sweeps" like a sideways chop.
What this teacher does is the same finger, hand and arm position of the WT lower gate deflection but instead of "chopping" outward they "shoot" foreward.
Like Chit Sau does just without using the knife edge of the hand. Hard to describe in this media format. That's the best I can do on that, sorry.

4. Now that I'm learning a style that doesn't train chain punching most of the class drilling I'm learning the other "options" for striking. Chops, elbows, the "stars" to disrupt structure. (shoulder, arm pit, lan sau, mon sau, hip elbow etc....) They do a woo sau that takes the shoulder of the opponent and pushes them "past" your centerline and turns their body to the side getting their centerline off you. Again, hard to explain.

5. Now kicking! Ahhhhhh! I missing kicking! Sifu doesn't teach kicking until about a year or more into training. my legs are litterly itching when training to kick! They trap me, I wanna kick, they latch me, I kick.... (they really think that by latching my arm keeps me from doing heel kick. doesn't. But I don't fight with them about that.) Miss my kicking and will have to "shadow drill" (as I call it) on my own as usual no biggie. (drills like stepping while doing tan, pac, bong, whatever sau while punching and kicking at the same time in the air) "shadow drilling" like boxers when they "shadow box".

I'm still learning this stuff and doing "rolling" lan sau under the armpit of a bigger guy is soooo much better than trying to blast straight down their centerline chain punching or "battle blitzing". For me anyways. If I was a 6'4" Dude then sure, I wouldn't need another option.


Man! I wish I could go more than once a week! arrrrghghghghhhhh!
I hope this clears up some stuff for ya'll.
I'm still not going into detail about the chainpunching/battle blitz collapse. Sorry. Not sharing that one, it's mine for now. Too many men doing WT/WC/VT that attack that way almost 75% of the time. Best to keep that one for teeny tiny me. And God Bless Sifu for showing me that!
Because bong sauing chainpunching/blitz just won't work in the heat of it and/or against a bigger stronger dude. Not as well anyways. That's what I was shown before too. And pac sauing one hand and punching the other hand just puts you into that other WT drill. Still a stalemate.
I would love to share this with you guys love ya'll, but I still have a WT practitioner to deal with that may be watching these forums. Gotta keep a couple of secrets to myself for now until I can get rid of this damn guy. And that most likely will never totally happen. (don't ever ever get married. I'm telling ya! I sure as HELL won't ever do that again! lol!)

 

[zepedawingchun]

. . . . . . . This lineage goes backwards. This is really "weird" for me because I just don't know how to do it "wing chun" style. It was drilled into me to NEVER step backwards. So this is a HUGE adjustment to the range of my stance work.

If your opponent is coming foreward and overpowering your structure, you have no choice but to move backwards. But then go forewards. It's called recovery. A weaker force must yield to a greater force to regain it's position.

. . . . . . . The chain punching/battle blitz thing. It's so much easier to absolutely stop either without using tan, bong or pac sau. I don't know another way to describe it right now other than "slapping" it away. But more accurately would be to say "shutting" it down or collapsing the chain punching movement into itself. It's trippy.

I didn't say anything about tan, bong, and pak. And just slapping it away doesn't work. I stated to cut the angle, come in from the side with pak sau, but you do that with the force of the pak going forwards toward your opponent, crashing their elbow, shutting it down with the pak and striking with your other hand. Sounds pretty much like what you are alluding to.

. . . . . . . Chit Sau is like a knife edge "chop" motion going foreward into the attacker. Gong sau is (to me) like a lower gate "bong sau". Same arm position just lower. Then there is the WT movement that is neither but it sort of "sweeps" like a sideways chop.
What this teacher does is the same finger, hand and arm position of the WT lower gate deflection but instead of "chopping" outward they "shoot" foreward.
Like Chit Sau does just without using the knife edge of the hand. Hard to describe in this media format. That's the best I can do on that, sorry.

The finger, hand, arm position sounds like gan sau. We use it in conjunction with a tan sau or a punch, so with the punch we call it biu da.

Gong sau is like a lower gate bong sau? Then the arm position should be called bong sau. What I was taught to be gong sau is similar to gan sau, except you strike with the small round bone (pistaform) at the palms edge. The force is forward and also downward towards you opponent and snap the hand (or abduct the wrist, however you say it). You maintain the loose fist and a half distance from the body of the elbow.