Minimum Standards -- Grappling

[American HKD]

Here are english names I would like to use. I don't know Korean names mainly because we we're just taught using numbers like lapel grab #1, 2,3,4 etc.


Escapes from wrist grabs

• Horizontal
• Vertical
• Downward
• Outward

Throws

• Shoulder
• Hip
• Outside reap
• Front leg sweep
• Wheel
• Low sweep throw
• Horse Stance throw
• Inside leg reap

Punches

• Center knuckle
• Tiger mouth
• Palm Heel
• Knife hand
• Reverse Knife Hand
• Bottom Fist
• Ridge Hand
• Back fist
• Thumb strike
• Elbow Vertical
• Elbow Horizontal
• Side Elbow
• Claw hand strike

Kicks

• Center toe
• Front
• Push
• Cresant In
• Cresant Out
• Back kick
• Low Forward Sweep
• Side
• Round
• 45 Degree Angle
• Sickle kick
• Reverse sickle
• Spear kick
• Hook kick
• Hammer kick
• Axe kick

Joint manipulations

• Knife hand press
• Outside wrist Lock
• Elbow Arm Bar
• Turning break
• Hammer Lock
• All Direction throw
• S Wrist lock
• Spiral wrist Lock
• Goose neck lock
• Figure 4 arm lock
• Downward Wrist Lock
• Possibly a few others?

Falls

1. Front
2. Back
3. Side

Rolls


1. Front
2. Back
3. Side


Blocks

• Upper Forearm
• Inside Forearm
• Outside Forearm
• Downward Forearm
• Cross hand
• Double Sword
• Inside circle
• Outer circle
• Straight Arm Inside Parry
• Backhand Parry

 

[Mithios]

I use English for the techniques, and numbers. Arm bar #'s 1,2,3, etc. This is also the way my korean instructor taught. And since the korean translation's can be so different, i understand why. I have noticed that the terminology for the T.K.D./T.S.D. groups are somewhat more unified in there terminology. Mithios

 

[American HKD]

I use English for the techniques, and numbers. Arm bar #'s 1,2,3, etc. This is also the way my korean instructor taught. And since the korean translation's can be so different, i understand why. I have noticed that the terminology for the T.K.D./T.S.D. groups are somewhat more unified in there terminology. Mithios

I don't actually think the Koreans knew the name's when the Art came over from Japan or Choi Yong Sul didn't use them because the Koreans didn't want to use Japanese terms.

 

[dosandojang]

Bruce, tell Iron Ox to PM me if he wants my input! I would love to talk with him and try and be of any help in I can! Peace...

 

[Disco]

Same basic subject, but let me ask this question. What would anyone consider non-necessary techniques or over kill of a particular technique. Use the wrist grab as an example. Is it necessary to learn 10, 15 or 20 ways to combat a single wrist grab? Is it even necessary for men to learn any wrist grab techniques? (I've never heard of a conflict between males that ever started with grabbing the other guys wrist, except for someone being grabbed by law enforcement and that's a whole different ballgame). Opinions?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

The answer to what is important is as varied as the number of teachers and their teaching priorities. Thats why I thought that starting with a minimal standard made more sense than an exhaustive standard which might include what one person thought was important and excluded what yet another person thought was important. But lets take your example.

The wrist bends in four directions and torques in yet two more. How many techniques does it take to seemlessly exploit these six options into effective system of self-defense? Now add the elbow, which can either hyper-flex, or hyper-extend. How many techniques does it take to exploit THESE qualities? How about IN CONJUNCTION WITH the wrist? I have some small appreciation of what you are asking having already spent more than a few years restructuring the WHF curriculum along exactly these lines in a series of levels of increasingly more sophisticated execution. But now, let me turn the tables a bit.

My books are available because I did the drudgework required. Dr. Kimms' books exist because HE did the drudgework required. GM Myungs books and tapes exist because HE did the drudgework required. Dojunim Kims photgraphic records of Chois' curriculum exist because HE did the drudgework required. I hear a lot of testosterone-driven whining about how REAL Hapkido practitioners are all out on the mat training and the rest of the feebles are here talking. I wonder if the macho-types are aware that without the drudgework they wouldn't HAVE a Hapkido to practice. I know that I can do the drudgework AND I know that I can hold my own on the mat. I don't know if the macho types can do anything on the mat or not, but its rather plain that they sure can't pitch-in to a constructive discussion about what direction Hapkido needs to take in the future. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Mike:

The answer to what is important is as varied as the number of teachers and their teaching priorities. Thats why I thought that starting with a minimal standard made more sense than an exhaustive standard which might include what one person thought was important and excluded what yet another person thought was important. But lets take your example.

The wrist bends in four directions and torques in yet two more. How many techniques does it take to seemlessly exploit these six options into effective system of self-defense? Now add the elbow, which can either hyper-flex, or hyper-extend. How many techniques does it take to exploit THESE qualities? How about IN CONJUNCTION WITH the wrist? I have some small appreciation of what you are asking having already spent more than a few years restructuring the WHF curriculum along exactly these lines in a series of levels of increasingly more sophisticated execution. But now, let me turn the tables a bit.

My books are available because I did the drudgework required. Dr. Kimms' books exist because HE did the drudgework required. GM Myungs books and tapes exist because HE did the drudgework required. Dojunim Kims photgraphic records of Chois' curriculum exist because HE did the drudgework required. I hear a lot of testosterone-driven whining about how REAL Hapkido practitioners are all out on the mat training and the rest of the feebles are here talking. I wonder if the macho-types are aware that without the drudgework they wouldn't HAVE a Hapkido to practice. I know that I can do the drudgework AND I know that I can hold my own on the mat. I don't know if the macho types can do anything on the mat or not, but its rather plain that they sure can't pitch-in to a constructive discussion about what direction Hapkido needs to take in the future. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Your point is well taken but no one will agree as to which tech or how many.

I know one Master a Korean BTW and successfull he only requires 1 specific low sleeve and 1 mid sleeve and 2 tech for lapel and shoulder grabs period.

The rest is all cross applied from wrist grabs in which he only requires the same 4 techs for single, cross, double, and 2 hand grab.

The entire cirriculum to 1st dan contists of about 80 techniques but everyone can cross apply them for all grabs, holds, punches etc.

Interesting concept I think

 

[Disco]

Question re-phrase.........Since fights / attacks have.....Sometimes / Almost Never / Never........(you pick the appropriate condition), started with someone grabbing your wrist, is all that training in those techniques a waste of time or not?

 

[Paul B]

I don't think so. The premise is, that grabs are newbie techniques. A way to start learning the basic mechanics of a particular technique,if you will.

It is far easier for a newbie to deal with a "non threatning" attack,such as a grab,then to deal with a fist or foot flying towards them. I say that grabs are irreplacable as fundamental material. Even in advanced training,are not grabs closely followed by a strike or kick? Grabs offer a means of control. As a means of locking or throwing.

Who is to say that people won't grab you trying to stop your movement or striking in a fight? Then the basic newbie grab techniques come into play.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Mike:

In my book training is NEVER a waste of time but I can offer some insights into why I use wrist grabs.

Learning Hapkido is a huge challenge hence anything that can restructure the challenge to tilt things in favor of the student gets my vote. Certainly a person could make an argument that fights are more striking and kicking than restraints. However, if a person were to learn joint locks and throws my thought is to keep the focus on the technique at hand (and of that as much on gross motor skills to start with as possible) and not cloud the issue with a host of other variables. True, if we were back a couple of centuries, training as corvee units under a cadre of officers, and had limited time to learn basic skills we would not spend as much time honing our abilities or our teaching paradyms. However, most of us will never have to use these skills and those who have a higher probability will invest themselves accordingly. Having said all the lets return to the wrist grab.

Being grabbed means that I do not have to concern myself with target aquisition, combat distance, weapon identification, vectors, velocity and so forth. I can simply work on learning the technique and what makes it work. As I progress I may have a teacher (like GM Myung) who raises my technical awareness by making me do the same technique under a variety of conditions such as cross-grab, straight-grab, grab from the side and so forth. In time I unconsciously come to appreciate what constitutes combat distance without actually having to listen to a class on it. I can also phase into learning to deal with the same technique done "free-form" such as an attack with a strike, attack with a weapon, as part of a transition from a failed technique, in conjunction with a weapon or following the loss of a weapon.

To me. dropping wrist grabs would mean dropping a meaningful learning tool. But thats just me. I'm not in any huge rush but that doesn't mean that there aren't other people who want to pare things down to suit their agendas. I still teach the way I was taught, just with a bit different take on organization, so I imagine I will be teaching wrist-grabs for some time to come. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

Question re-phrase.........Since fights / attacks have.....Sometimes / Almost Never / Never........(you pick the appropriate condition), started with someone grabbing your wrist, is all that training in those techniques a waste of time or not?

Many fights I have seen, been in, start with a grab of some sort, most "attacks" (good seperation here) seem to start with a grab, or rush and grab - grabs are definitely worth training - they are a good jumping off point toward full force punching and kicking attacks.

 

[Disco]

True, grabs are a fact of life in combat, I'm not disputing that. What I'm driving at is the validity of a specific training application, that is given a substantial amount of effort to learn, that will almost certainly never happen.

(A side note here: I'm having some trouble with posting and PM's. Don't know if it's my AOL connection or the site itself. Anyone having problems?)

 

[American HKD]

Many fights I have seen, been in, start with a grab of some sort, most "attacks" (good seperation here) seem to start with a grab, or rush and grab - grabs are definitely worth training - they are a good jumping off point toward full force punching and kicking attacks.

Kevin,

How realistic are low sleeve mid sleeve clothes grabs and wrist grabs, compared to shoulder area, chest and lapel grabs?

IMO I think that low sleeve clothes grabs are'nt worth spending to much time on because most of the "grab punch senerios" happen in the shoulder, chest, lapel, throat areas?

Also wrist grabs I find are "more for teaching technique" as staring point if you will than an actual defense situation.

How many times is someone really grabing your wrist standing face to face, realistically the wrist requires someone to bend or make an obivous move for the wrist it's much faster and easier to grab up higher. Maybe in a strugle or in the middle of a fight your wrist gets grabed.

What do you think?

 

[American HKD]

I don't think so. The premise is, that grabs are newbie techniques. A way to start learning the basic mechanics of a particular technique,if you will.

It is far easier for a newbie to deal with a "non threatning" attack,such as a grab,then to deal with a fist or foot flying towards them. I say that grabs are irreplacable as fundamental material. Even in advanced training,are not grabs closely followed by a strike or kick? Grabs offer a means of control. As a means of locking or throwing.

Who is to say that people won't grab you trying to stop your movement or striking in a fight? Then the basic newbie grab techniques come into play.

I agree with Paul